Junior football, what is the future?

[Marten]

11 hours ago, Vollyman said:

You are sinking to the depths now accusing the ERJFA of lying to a member club.

Thankfully no junior official/fan on here has ever accused the EOS of lying to member clubs...

It's pretty obvious very conflicting information is put in this thread, even just by the officals/fans of junior clubs.

[Marten]

13 hours ago, locheeboy said:

Nobody is ripping up anything the PWG has accepted the Juniors in at Tier 6 ....If a Tayside club wins the play off and they have their licence then they will progress to the LL.... EoS cannot veto that it is agreed ...... There is no mandate of all in or none. The North have a decison to make but from what I am hearing they are not interested. This will not have any effect on the ERJFA & WRJFA... 

Once again if I am wrong or spouting shite you will soon find out and I will happily take abuse.......can the same be said for Burnieman ?

You can say all that stuff, but you just hide away from the issues that exist. The PWG can't just make changes. They can make proposals that then have to be accepted by various parties. It's already pretty clear the EOS are not going to agree to this, and rightfully so from their point of view. Even if individual EOS reps on the PWG were more positive about this, they still have to take this to their own meeting for it to be agreed. People have been making comparisons to Brexit, and these developments have things in common. Theresa May and the EU negotiators can agree any deal they like, but if either the UK Parliament, EU Parliament or individual member states don't like it, it's not going to happen. Which was exactly the case when Parliament voted the deal down a few weeks ago.

And you easily brush over the HL/LL dividing line issue. The PWG can't make any changes in that. It's the HL, LL & SPFL. Has this been discussed with the SPFL? They seem very reluctant to change anything in the current pyramid set up as they don't want teams (like Elgin) getting relegated in a league that's too weak. I'm not saying there can't be a solution, but it's certainly not as easy as you make it out to be. There are various hurdles to overcome and compromises will have to be made. The ERJFA/SJFA haven't shown much willingness to compromise so far.

I want a solution for all teams, including Tayside. Lochee United are my local team, the ground is in walking distance from where I live. I'm thinking of going to Troon to watch the Junior Cup QF tie (should all go well today). But your contributions don't seem helpful to me. And the behaviour of certain Lochee United officials (including whoever runs the Twitter account) do sometimes dampen my sympathy for the club.

[Arthurlie1981]

Thankfully no junior official/fan on here has ever accused the EOS of lying to member clubs...
It's pretty obvious very conflicting information is put in this thread, even just by the officals/fans of junior clubs.

This is the problem with this thread. It’s not just the leagues that are dug in its the fans who (from both sides) who are also.

As I said before there is no way of knowing who is right and who is wrong until an announcement is made. I think people from all sides should stop throwing about accusations and personal attacks on people without any foundation.

[glensmad]

If the West Region clubs joining the pyramid is not a certainty, I'm sure the clubs will be asking why they have been told at last week's meeting that it is.

[GNU_Linux]

If the West Region clubs joining the pyramid is not a certainty, I'm sure the clubs will be asking why they have been told at last week's meeting that it is.

 

For a league to join the pyramid it needs to be ratified and agreed by the PWG & all of its members. As of the last PWG meeting in January nothing had been agreed (see the EOS minutes from last month). At an EOS meeting on Thursday it was much the same (see the below)

 

In respect of tier six next season the Eos are saying one thing juniors another.

At the eosfl meeting last night the mgmnt committee gave compelling reasons and resaurance that nothing had been agreed pertaining the West and the East wasn't going to happen.

Time will tell.

 

 

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, bluebell1 said:

To me this is where we are, there is a directive from the sfa board that the juniors are in at tier 6 and this has been passed to the PWG to implement.

Current Issues

(1) SFA don’t have the manpower to administer the discipline procedures for all teams when the juniors come across and the disciplinary department have advised this.  This will be rectified by allowing the juniors who come in at tier 6 to continue to administer there own discipline procedures once aligned and agreed with SFA. I believe this is almost agreed.

(2) Under the SFA directive the PWG have failed to implement structure allowing juniors in at tier 6 because of issues of the 2 leagues in the east and the rejection by the eosl to accept the east juniors at this tier level.  This is unlikely to be resolved so will in all likeliness be referred back to SFA board stating why they have failed to comply with an sfa board directive. From what happens then is anyone’s guess.

(3)  I think the minutes of the PWG should be openly available to all clubs.  Transparency is what is required and maybe doing this would get all associations together and help agree a way forward for the benefit of non league football in Scotland.

Due to point 2 a would be amazed if things are all agreed in time for next season unless the SFA board find a way to implement but that requires strong leadership which the organisation severely lacks.  The make up of the representation on the PWG board we’re never going to agree.  The SFA should have foreseen this.  As said before I have no issues with the east juniors coming in at tier 6 as long as there is some kind of amalgamation of the leagues also agreed in the near future under one organisational structure.  

I also feel that some posters on here burnieman, al fae camelon and ginaro don’t help the eosl on these forums although I understand they speak for themselves not there clubs same as myself.  A lot of there posts come across as arrogance (senior club ??) towards the juniors now which I struggle to understand.  

Personally, I am enjoying our first season in the eosl with the bluebell but haven’t forgot our roots.  Just hope sooner or later all is resolved and we can all be under one structured pyramid under one organisation as the current situation is of no  benefit whatsoever to non league football in Scotland.

Oh and don’t get me started on the licensing and the self preservation society of sfa league clubs.  I will let you know how a feel about that after next Tuesday. 

Its Saturday enjoy the football 

You obviously have a weird level of understanding no surprise your from Fife.  I only want everyone in the one set up that's all I'm after. If the juniors want to stay they should stay but they shouldn't be in the pyramid should the SFA go ahead with this I will be hounding them and demanding max well resigns if ersjfa get in the pyramid.

 

I actually think your wrong on they are telling them to get in the pyramid I think he didn't understand the reality and opened his trap without asking 

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

10 minutes ago, glensmad said:

If the West Region clubs joining the pyramid is not a certainty, I'm sure the clubs will be asking why they have been told at last week's meeting that it is.

For a league to join the pyramid it needs to be ratified and agreed by the PWG & all of its members. As of the last PWG meeting in January nothing had been agreed (see the EOS minutes from last month). At an EOS meeting on Wednesday or Thursday it was much the same (see the post by Tynierose who is involved with Linlithgow Rose in an official capacity iirc)

And matched two other people who were their story

[lowenan]

The HL/LL dividing line is a major hurdle, perhaps the main one. Yet there seems to be very little focus on it.

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, lowenan said:

The HL/LL dividing line is a major hurdle, perhaps the main one. Yet there seems to be very little focus on it.

I'd say the major hurdle is 2 leagues in one area

[craigkillie]

54 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

 

This is the problem with this thread. It’s not just the leagues that are dug in its the fans who (from both sides) who are also.

As I said before there is no way of knowing who is right and who is wrong until an announcement is made. I think people from all sides should stop throwing about accusations and personal attacks on people without any foundation.

There is no way of absolutely knowing who is right and wrong, but we do know which posters have a history of being credible and which ones do not.

[lowenan]

I think the juniors can be given room or dispensation for that. In the west there is already the SOSFL. There are also two leagues in the north. But only the East Juniors have a league that is across the divide. So which league will they qualify to play in?  

If they move the divide further north, that also has to be moved for the EOSFL, so that Lochee and Broughty can play in the EOSFL if they choose.

Edited February 9, 2019 by lowenan

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, bluebell1 said:

To me this is where we are, there is a directive from the sfa board that the juniors are in at tier 6 and this has been passed to the PWG to implement.

Current Issues

(1) SFA don’t have the manpower to administer the discipline procedures for all teams when the juniors come across and the disciplinary department have advised this.  This will be rectified by allowing the juniors who come in at tier 6 to continue to administer there own discipline procedures once aligned and agreed with SFA. I believe this is almost agreed.

(2) Under the SFA directive the PWG have failed to implement structure allowing juniors in at tier 6 because of issues of the 2 leagues in the east and the rejection by the eosl to accept the east juniors at this tier level.  This is unlikely to be resolved so will in all likeliness be referred back to SFA board stating why they have failed to comply with an sfa board directive. From what happens then is anyone’s guess.

(3)  I think the minutes of the PWG should be openly available to all clubs.  Transparency is what is required and maybe doing this would get all associations together and help agree a way forward for the benefit of non league football in Scotland.

Due to point 2 a would be amazed if things are all agreed in time for next season unless the SFA board find a way to implement but that requires strong leadership which the organisation severely lacks.  The make up of the representation on the PWG board we’re never going to agree.  The SFA should have foreseen this.  As said before I have no issues with the east juniors coming in at tier 6 as long as there is some kind of amalgamation of the leagues also agreed in the near future under one organisational structure.  

I also feel that some posters on here burnieman, al fae camelon and ginaro don’t help the eosl on these forums although I understand they speak for themselves not there clubs same as myself.  A lot of there posts come across as arrogance (senior club ??) towards the juniors now which I struggle to understand.  

Personally, I am enjoying our first season in the eosl with the bluebell but haven’t forgot our roots.  Just hope sooner or later all is resolved and we can all be under one structured pyramid under one organisation as the current situation is of no  benefit whatsoever to non league football in Scotland.

Oh and don’t get me started on the licensing and the self preservation society of sfa league clubs.  I will let you know how a feel about that after next Tuesday. 

Its Saturday enjoy the football 

One of the disappointing things on this forum is when people feel the need to bring personality into it, I only expect it from the trolls.  You've chosen to have a dig at several posters, inc Ginaro who is one of the best contributors on this subject on here, yet no comment on the contributions from the other side. Personally I post based on what I know, I don't consider anything I post to have any impact on the EoS as it's all either fact or on balance a good chance of being fact IMO, and people are free to challenge it. If that's considered arrogance I wont apologise for that. 

On the specific points you raise;

1) I understand that the SFA do want the SJFA to oversee discipline etc (ridiculous IMO) but I'm not sure how close or far apart they are.  The EoS, LL, SoS will want it all handled in exactly the same way as the SFA handle it for consistency. I guess they need to be happy as well with what is going to happen.

2) What SFA directive? I think it's fair to say that the SFA Board are a little worried about a whole load of Junior clubs coming over the hill wanting membership, hence embargo. I think they had no objections to the Juniors being involved in the Pyramid but know little of the granular detail or the politics involved, leaving that to PWG to handle.  I doubt the SFA Board know too much about the HL/LL line or the Lower Pyramid Play-Off rules.  Maxwell jumped the gun with his infamous email on behalf of the Professional Game Board, I don't think he fully grasped the issues, he thought it was a quick fix.

3) Agree, the whole thing needs to be much more open. Not necessarily in the public domain, but at least amongst the clubs. Once again clubs - particularly in the ERJFA - will be left to try and make sense of it all before deciding to stick or twist. They have 7 weeks.

As far as Licencing is concerned, this is the make or break week.  It provides an insight into how the SFA operate where nobody can agree on who makes the decision on derogation for floodlights.  With that in mind and going back to point 2, I don't think the SFA Board care too much about the current goings on at PWG, all they want to know is how many more members might this give us.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Black & Red Socks]

Locheeboy. Thanks for responding, although not necessarily answering. I’m genuinely not saying all your assertions are wrong and get that you passionately believe what you’re saying to be true, but I honestly just want to understand how this can all be so when there are specific rules and regulations that govern several scenarios that stand in the way - rules and regulations that have been oft quoted in this thread already and can only be changed by agreement between the parties impacted by those rules and regulations. So, sorry to be repeating both my own and others questions but how is the below to be overcome???

 

 

If a Tayside club wins the play off and they have their licence then they will progress to the LL....

 

The Highland League/Lowland League boundary specifically precludes this. Who has agreed to change this boundary?

 

EoS cannot veto that it is agreed ......

 

The laws governing promotion between SoS/EoSFL and the Lowland League mean that each party has to agree to any change (ie agree to another Tier 6 feeder League being introduced into the mix). From the feedback of others the EoSFL rep on the PWG has stated clearly to his members at an EoSFL monthly meeting that they have not and will not agree to such a change if it means the ERSJFA, a geographically overlapping organisation, being involved at Tier 6. This represents the wishes of the EoSFL clubs. To be clear, are you saying that the EoSFL rep is lying to his member clubs?

 

 

There is no mandate of all in or none.

 

I concede I may be wrong on this point, but I seem to recall - a recollection backed up by others - that this is exactly the mandate the SJFA have and to change it would have to be a decision taken by the whole SJFA membership at an EGM?

 

 

[cmontheloknow]

8 minutes ago, lowenan said:

I think the juniors can be given room or dispensation for that. In the west there is already the SOSFL. There are also two leagues in the north. But only the East Juniors have a league that is across the divide. So which league will they qualify to play in?  

If they move the divide further north, that also has to be moved for the EOSFL, so that Lochee and Broughty can play in the EOSFL if they choose.

On this topic, would say the SoSL's existence is not massively relevant to the West's position as there is (virtually) no geographical overlap, save for two clubs (Kello Rovers and Bonnyton Thistle).

On the HL/LL, moving the divide further north reduces the catchment of the HL and increases that of the LL - the geographical inequality needs to be considered at some point (IMO). Travel for the Dundee clubs to greater Aberdeen is not massively different to travelling to Ayrshire for games. Suck it up - yes, they're caught in the middle but Scottish football shouldn't bend the knee to them. They've only played league football with clubs south of the Tay (Tayport excepted!) since 2002 as it is. It's not as if tradition is being shredded here.

[Guest]

The pwg is where any decision regarding new leagues will be taken, as well as how any new set up will look. As far as I am aware, from reading various sources and asking those involved, every member of the pwg must be in agreement for anything new to be ratified, no one association can tell another what to do and a show of hands/majority wins isnt the process. It must be a 100% agreement across the board. 

[Arthurlie1981]

There is no way of absolutely knowing who is right and wrong, but we do know which posters have a history of being credible and which ones do not.

Of course some people will be at the wind up but my point it some people will genuinely believe what they have been told because whoever told them have a vested interest. The East Region won’t want any more defection, the EOSL won’t want a rival league (which makes sense but after all this is Scottish football so we will probably end up with 2 rival leagues) and the West Region won’t want to see a repeat of what happened in the east (which I think is unlikely anyway).

Tyneness summed it up brilliantly above. This is all down to the SFA. They ballsed it up at the start an every attempt to sort it have been half hearted and without thought. I said it way back, this needs an independent person with no vested interest in this to propose a structure and let those that want to join it join and those that aren’t interested remain. Strong leadership is required but sadly lacking from the SFA.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Of course some people will be at the wind up but my point it some people will genuinely believe what they have been told because whoever told them have a vested interest. The East Region won’t want any more defection, the EOSL won’t want a rival league (which makes sense but after all this is Scottish football so we will probably end up with 2 rival leagues) and the West Region won’t want to see a repeat of what happened in the east (which I think is unlikely anyway).

Tyneness summed it up brilliantly above. This is all down to the SFA. They ballsed it up at the start an every attempt to sort it have been half hearted and without thought. I said it way back, this needs an independent person with no vested interest in this to propose a structure and let those that want to join it join and those that aren’t interested remain. Strong leadership is required but sadly lacking from the SFA.

 

To be fair to the eosfl, they are and have been the tier 6 feeder in the east for a considerable period, why should they give that up because the sjfa now wish to play ball with the pyramid? 

You say this was ballsed up from the start, however from memory, when the LL concept was drawn up the sjfa were canvassed and clubs were free to apply, they chose not to be involved and clubs were provided in accurate and misleading information by the sjfa at the time regarding costs etc. 

The sfa cannot come in now and take charge, as many wish could happen, as that is what the pwg is in place for. So each sfa member association has a voice and a say, as I said above, the pwg is where any new set up will be decided, by unanimous agreement, not a majority vote. 

Until that happens the status quo will remain. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

As a few above alluded to, the apparent lack of knowledge and effort by the SFA is predictable, but still disappointing. There appears to be no research in to the historic anomalies or even learning from implementation of the LL. A group from here could have made a better job of it. 

[cmontheloknow]

Was it not suggested there was some wee incentive for the upper echelons of the governing body to produce 'a' pyramid, if not 'THE' Pyramid?

[Arthurlie1981]

To be fair to the eosfl, they are and have been the tier 6 feeder in the east for a considerable period, why should they give that up because the sjfa now wish to play ball with the pyramid? 
You say this was ballsed up from the start, however from memory, when the LL concept was drawn up the sjfa were canvassed and clubs were free to apply, they chose not to be involved and clubs were provided in accurate and misleading information by the sjfa at the time regarding costs etc. 
The sfa cannot come in now and take charge, as many wish could happen, as that is what the pwg is in place for. So each sfa member association has a voice and a say, as I said above, the pwg is where any new set up will be decided, by unanimous agreement, not a majority vote. 
Until that happens the status quo will remain. 

I have not said the EOSL should give up being a feeder. There should be one league feeding from each area and it makes sense to be the existing one.

When you say about clubs being given the opportunity to join the LL when set up it’s not as straight forward as that. I put questions to the LL that we needed answered to make an informed decision but we received no reply. To say all clubs believed the inaccurate figures that were provided for ground improvements is not true. We researched how we could get the basic licence and spoke to the SFA regarding this. We know it would never cost that much most junior clubs don’t believe everything that comes from the SJFA and can make their decisions independently.

Our decision to not apply were financial in the cost of travelling to East and the borders of every other week and potentially mid week.

We informed the SFA that we wanted to join the pyramid but without a structure in the west below it we felt it was financial suicide to do it. The response was a shrug of the shoulders. The LL as it was constituted at the time was a box ticking exercise for UEFA. That is why we currently have the mess we have. If they had set up a west of Scotland league at the time you wouldn’t have this problem. But the LL were only interested in protecting clubs in the East Region at the begging (imo) and the SFA had achieved their aims.

The SFA set up the PWG and they will also have the power to end it. No one single body in Scotland is more powerful than the association. But this would cause too much hassle.