Junior football, what is the future?

[tellyboy]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

A mainly Aberdeen-based playing staff, I think. Montrose is five or ten miles closer to Dundee than Aberdeen, but the travel time is about the same.

Incorrect. Montrose Roselea have two Aberdeen based players who are both from the town and attend University. Its very hard to attract any players from Aberdeen/Dundee due to travel for an unpaid player even its under 40 miles for both. The bulk of players are Montrose based with 2 from Arbroath and one from Brechin.

The move north was mainly due to the clubs travel in the "Old" East Region. Roselea were mainly in the East Premier League which was mainly Lothians based meaning 200 mile round trips leaving at 10am and returning home at 8pm. The North is mainly Aberdeen based which is 36 miles away and was due to become better thanks to the new Bypass. Dyce which was previously 75 minutes away is now 45 mins meaning Cars can be taken and also reduces costs. The "new" East Region Superleague  looks slightly more appealing with the mainly Tayside feel to it however there is still much Fife & Lothian trips to be done.

Perhaps one of the biggest reasons was competition. In the East Roselea were mainly a bottom half Premier side and did yo yo between the District Leagues. Arguably they would never be a Superleague side although there were two squads who might have just made it. Roselea are on a par with the likes of Culter, Hermes, Bridge of Don Thistle, Dyce ec but Banks o Dee are still that bit further ahead although Roselea did draw with them in the League Cup Semi only to lose on penalties.  Up until a December defeat from BOD Roselea topped the North Superleague. There has been no silverware but every game is competitive and at a level that is good for the club and players.

Finally the years use of Links Park has also been a great success with crowds and Hospitality up. Roselea are now working on an agreement to make the rent of the pitch more permanent. The Community Trust in Montrose is flourishing and Roselea will eventually become the final part of the jigsaw by joining up as a member and add to the Youth, Amateur, Ladies, Over 35s and walking football sections. The CT will also take over Broomfield Park and maintain it for mainly the Amateur and Ladies/Youths but also for Roselea should there be any fixture clashes (there is one on March 23rd)

All in a great move and IMO I think the Tayside clubs should consider the amalgamation as an option (I know a lot still don't fancy it) as the travel to Aberdeen is much improved. I always thought that the pyramid would force the issue and it is heading that way. Roselea made a brave move which was criticised by many but if something is not right and there is a way to fix it why not try it?

[Cyclizine]

Great reply, thanks

[Marten]

15 minutes ago, tellyboy said:

Incorrect. Montrose Roselea have two Aberdeen based players who are both from the town and attend University. Its very hard to attract any players from Aberdeen/Dundee due to travel for an unpaid player even its under 40 miles for both. The bulk of players are Montrose based with 2 from Arbroath and one from Brechin.

The move north was mainly due to the clubs travel in the "Old" East Region. Roselea were mainly in the East Premier League which was mainly Lothians based meaning 200 mile round trips leaving at 10am and returning home at 8pm. The North is mainly Aberdeen based which is 36 miles away and was due to become better thanks to the new Bypass. Dyce which was previously 75 minutes away is now 45 mins meaning Cars can be taken and also reduces costs. The "new" East Region Superleague  looks slightly more appealing with the mainly Tayside feel to it however there is still much Fife & Lothian trips to be done.

Perhaps one of the biggest reasons was competition. In the East Roselea were mainly a bottom half Premier side and did yo yo between the District Leagues. Arguably they would never be a Superleague side although there were two squads who might have just made it. Roselea are on a par with the likes of Culter, Hermes, Bridge of Don Thistle, Dyce ec but Banks o Dee are still that bit further ahead although Roselea did draw with them in the League Cup Semi only to lose on penalties.  Up until a December defeat from BOD Roselea topped the North Superleague. There has been no silverware but every game is competitive and at a level that is good for the club and players.

Finally the years use of Links Park has also been a great success with crowds and Hospitality up. Roselea are now working on an agreement to make the rent of the pitch more permanent. The Community Trust in Montrose is flourishing and Roselea will eventually become the final part of the jigsaw by joining up as a member and add to the Youth, Amateur, Ladies, Over 35s and walking football sections. The CT will also take over Broomfield Park and maintain it for mainly the Amateur and Ladies/Youths but also for Roselea should there be any fixture clashes (there is one on March 23rd)

All in a great move and IMO I think the Tayside clubs should consider the amalgamation as an option (I know a lot still don't fancy it) as the travel to Aberdeen is much improved. I always thought that the pyramid would force the issue and it is heading that way. Roselea made a brave move which was criticised by many but if something is not right and there is a way to fix it why not try it?

Based on what I know about Roselea and sharing at Links Park, I assume that if the NRJFA become a part of the pyramid, you'll be well placed to quickly get your license?

[Robert James]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The distinction that the Highland League has had stricter criteria than the Lowland League is about to disappear. 

Main advantage of being in an sfa pyramid league is the ability to get licensed. Licensing now requires floodlights.

As I stated in an earlier post, I anticipate a change in the Lowland League rules so that floodlights become compulsory for all clubs at Tier 5 (SLL & HFL).  It is my guess that this change in rules will be sooner rather than later, thereby aligning the Lowland with the SFA's change in licensing requirements - possibly for season 2020/21.

What will be importance to CS Strollers, Vale of Leithen, & Whitehill Welfare is the length of the SFA's licensing "derogation" period for clubs without floodlights, particularly as formal Planning Approval is needed from their local authority, as well as each of these Lowland clubs raising the finance for the lights.  Also, grant applications take time, and may not be approved.

Does anyone know how  the licensing   "derogation" framework/principles  will be devised ?

 

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

This is all getting a bit ugly.

I for one hope that the likes of Whitburn, Fauldhouse and Armadale get on board and all these teams playing each other again.

What people miss is that a lot of the nostalgia for the juniors is pre Superleague when the Tayside clubs especially didn't feature and limited travel. Ironically it's the EoS that at the moment is going to deliver an old John Walker League as its premier competition next year. I think it'll be a bumper year for those in it given the distance apart of the clubs.

It's a shame that some of the above won't also be in the mix.

The sooner this all merges the better.

Any official outcome, or leaks from the ERJFA meeting, as yet ? 

[FairWeatherFan]

32 minutes ago, Robert James said:

As I stated in an earlier post, I anticipate a change in the Lowland League rules so that floodlights become compulsory for all clubs at Tier 5 (SLL & HFL).  It is my guess that this change in rules will be sooner rather than later, thereby aligning the Lowland with the SFA's change in licensing requirements - possibly for season 2020/21.

What will be importance to CS Strollers, Vale of Leithen, & Whitehill Welfare is the length of the SFA's licensing "derogation" period for clubs without floodlights, particularly as formal Planning Approval is needed from their local authority, as well as each of these Lowland clubs raising the finance for the lights.  Also, grant applications take time, and may not be approved.

Does anyone know how  the licensing   "derogation" framework/principles  will be devised ?

 

It doesn't need to be it's own rule, it's now part of licensing and you need a license to play in the Lowland League. The likes of Civil, Vale of Leithen and Whitehill will either get floodlights or lose their licenses eventually.

[stanley]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It doesn't need to be it's own rule, it's now part of licensing and you need a license to play in the Lowland League. The likes of Civil, Vale of Leithen and Whitehill will either get floodlights or lose their licenses eventually.

Hopefully the rules are applied equally.  Feels like the normal time is once you're in, you're in.  I suppose it would be very hard for them to let clubs retain a licence without floodlights but they could give them a long grace period.  The fact that every single one of the former SFA members managed to get licensed makes me wonder how equal it will be.

[Pyramidic]

I am quite fixated to this thread as are a few other stalwarts. I would love to read some real news on Pyramid progress one way or the other, rather than our daily diet of speculation with related facts, anecdotes and differing opinions.  Are there any key dates coming up? Club EGMs etc?  League meetings?  PWG dates? JC1 spilling the beans?

Club officials to their credit seem to be very tight-lipped at the moment. Are they waiting to see who will jump first? Or crucially whether the WRJFA / ERJFA / NRJFA are in or out?  Or whether TJ has delivered or reneged on the SJFA's agreed commitment to join the Pyramid?

What happens if we get to March 29th and the negotiations / way forward have still not been sorted out? A cliff edge scenario? Or will the issues just carry over into April and early May as they did last year before final determination?

Edited February 7, 2019 by Pyramidic

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, Marten said:

I'm just thinking about how a north pyramid structure could look like. I'm assuming the HL would then reduce to 16 clubs as that's the SFA's preference. That could mean that Fort William get relegated to the North Caledonian League which would become a 10 team league. Lossiemouth would join the North Superleague, which would become a 16 team league. With 33 north juniors (including Inverness City) and 16 Tayside juniors there could be 5 Tayside teams and 10 current NRJFA teams in the North Superleague (obviously you can debate about what's fair, but this example is for indicative purposes only).

The North Superleague would then consist of the following teams:

• Lossiemouth
• Banks O'Dee
• Bridge of Don
• Culter
• Montrose Roselea
• Nairn St. Ninian
• Dyce Juniors
• Hermes
• East End
• Colony Park
• Hall Russell United
• Lochee United
• Broughty Athletic
• Forfar West End
• Carnoustie Panmure
• Kirriemuir Thistle

Underneath that division there would be an 11 team Tayside league and the remaining 23 current NRJFA teams can form a 12 team First Division North and an 11 team Second Division. Champions of North Superleague &  NCL (if licensed) can then get promoted to the Highland League.

Now, whether or not all parties involved would like this and this would be realistic is a second, but I don't think this would be a bad set-up.

Edit: like Robert James suggests, there could be some movement from the north junior teams to the NCL to slightly correct the numbers rather than have a 10-team structure and a 50-team structure underneath the same league. Ultimately the amateur leagues can slot in below NCL, Division 2 & Tayside leagues as well to provide a proper pyramid all the way down.

Who would be club 16 in your model above, if Cove Rangers defeat  Albion Rovers or Berwick in the SPFL club 42 play-off, if (say)  they defeat East Kilbride in the 'semi' ?  

[AlanCamelonfan]

38 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I am quite fixated to this thread as are a few other stalwarts. I would love to read some real news on Pyramid progress one way or the other, rather than our daily diet of speculation with related facts, anecdotes and differing opinions.  Are there any key dates coming up? Club EGMs etc?  League meetings?  PWG dates? JC1 spilling the beans?

Club officials to their credit seem to be very tight-lipped at the moment. Are they waiting to see who will jump first? Or crucially whether the WRJFA / ERJFA / NRJFA are in or out?  Or whether TJ has delivered or reneged on the SJFA's agreed commitment to join the Pyramid?

What happens if we get to March 29th and the negotiations / way forward have still not been sorted out? A cliff edge scenario? Or will the issues just carry over into April and early May as they did last year before final determination?

I think particularly with ersjfa it will keep rangling on. They will be stalling for time as last night seems they are putting structures out their but when is the meeting to decide which option they go with. Probably after 31st March so the same scenario as last yr may happen.  Would EOSFL bend the rules again ?

I think WRSJFA seem to be on their way to entering the pyramid. Not really much noise regarding nrsjfa

[Robert James]

9 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

I think particularly with ersjfa it will keep rangling on. They will be stalling for time as last night seems they are putting structures out their but when is the meeting to decide which option they go with. Probably after 31st March so the same scenario as last yr may happen.  Would EOSFL bend the rules again ?

I think WRSJFA seem to be on their way to entering the pyramid. Not really much noise regarding nrsjfa

I suspect that the EoS might accept late applications, if there is a reasonable number of clubs applying before the 31/3 /19 deadline expires.  I would expect that the EoS will confirm the number of applicants within a few days of the 31st, but the league is unlikely to announce the club names officially,  in case any applicants have not informed their supporters/members.  

It is however grossly unfair on East junior clubs if they are left with an uncertain future again.   The EoSL can't issue a statement to the juniors, but the SJFA or  the SFA could.

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

Who would be club 16 in your model above, if Cove Rangers defeat  Albion Rovers or Berwick in the SPFL club 42 play-off, if (say)  they defeat East Kilbride in the 'semi' ?  

I suppose in that scenario either Lossiemouth will stay in the HFL or Banks O'Dee will get there in their place. The empty space in the north superleague can just be filled by a team that just missed out in my scenario.

49 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I suspect that the EoS might accept late applications, if there is a reasonable number of clubs applying before the 31/3 /19 deadline expires.  I would expect that the EoS will confirm the number of applicants within a few days of the 31st, but the league is unlikely to announce the club names officially,  in case any applicants have not informed their supporters/members.  

It is however grossly unfair on East junior clubs if they are left with an uncertain future again.   The EoSL can't issue a statement to the juniors, but the SJFA or  the SFA could.

I wouldn't be surprised if a number of teams put an application in with the idea that they can withdraw it and stay in the ERJFA if they so wish.

[Burnie_man]

13 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

14 hours ago, Marten said:

That last point is interesting, as this would suggest that the SJFA won't move in one big block. There will be leagues within the same organisation that are and aren't in the pyramid. I'd be very happy if the west joins, regardless of the situation elsewhere, but it would be an interesting situation for sure.

The question remains how will the sjfa handle managing & admining two different sets of rules fof its clubs. West will be bound directly by sfa rules but east/north those of the sjfa.

The SJFA have always said since the LL was first mooted, that if they enter the Pyramid it is as an intact entity bringing everyone with them. TJ was always at pains to say that this was the mandate given to him by the member clubs. Last years EGM was almost unanimous in seeking Pyramid entry on  that basis.

The WRJFA are gearing up for entry, that's clear, but what happens if NRJFA and/or ERJFA are not?  is it a case of everyone in, or nobody in because if so, it's not looking good for the west and nobody really seems to have an answer.

Do the SJFA seek an EGM of members to try and get the WRJFA in regardless of the fate of the other two Regions? how does that even work in practice.

[Marten]

13 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

I am quite fixated to this thread as are a few other stalwarts. I would love to read some real news on Pyramid progress one way or the other, rather than our daily diet of speculation with related facts, anecdotes and differing opinions.  Are there any key dates coming up? Club EGMs etc?  League meetings?  PWG dates? JC1 spilling the beans?

Club officials to their credit seem to be very tight-lipped at the moment. Are they waiting to see who will jump first? Or crucially whether the WRJFA / ERJFA / NRJFA are in or out?  Or whether TJ has delivered or reneged on the SJFA's agreed commitment to join the Pyramid?

What happens if we get to March 29th and the negotiations / way forward have still not been sorted out? A cliff edge scenario? Or will the issues just carry over into April and early May as they did last year before final determination?

A cliff edge scenario on 29th March 2019 if no deal is agreed? No, that's really unimaginable...

[AlanCamelonfan]

52 minutes ago, Marten said:

A cliff edge scenario on 29th March 2019 if no deal is agreed? No, that's really unimaginable...

Brexit and jexit on the same few days the world could end 

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Brexit and jexit on the same few days the world could end 

Go to Harthill. It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.

[glensmad]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Brexit and jexit on the same few days the world could end 

And if there's no jexit there could be a Clexit.

[AlanCamelonfan]

11 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Go to Harthill. It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.

Greenriggs not that bad

[Beenzon-Toste]

11 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

The SJFA have always said since the LL was first mooted, that if they enter the Pyramid it is as an intact entity bringing everyone with them. TJ was always at pains to say that this was the mandate given to him by the member clubs. Last years EGM was almost unanimous in seeking Pyramid entry on  that basis.

The WRJFA are gearing up for entry, that's clear, but what happens if NRJFA and/or ERJFA are not?  is it a case of everyone in, or nobody in because if so, it's not looking good for the west and nobody really seems to have an answer.

Do the SJFA seek an EGM of members to try and get the WRJFA in regardless of the fate of the other two Regions? how does that even work in practice.

Can someone please post the actual wording of what was passed at the SJFA AGM?

Is it the case that the SJFA were to explore a route into the Pyramid for their clubs?

At the moment there is a huge gap in the West/Central area of the Pyramid that is about to be taken up by the West Region. That would suggest that a route has been found for a section of the membership with other routes still to be finalised.

Just like everything else we read on here though, the Pro-Pyramid, Anti-Junior Brigade claim they want the Juniors in, but the minute it looks likely, they start looking for obstacles to their entry.

Let's face it. All this talk of no need for 2 associations in the same area is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that the EOSL want to have complete control of the East and it's self-preservation for their own ends.

Get the ERSJA in, see how it works, if it doesn't then let's look at it and sort it then.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Can someone please post the actual wording of what was passed at the SJFA AGM?

Is it the case that the SJFA were to explore a route into the Pyramid for their clubs?

At the moment there is a huge gap in the West/Central area of the Pyramid that is about to be taken up by the West Region. That would suggest that a route has been found for a section of the membership with other routes still to be finalised.

Just like everything else we read on here though, the Pro-Pyramid, Anti-Junior Brigade claim they want the Juniors in, but the minute it looks likely, they start looking for obstacles to their entry.

Let's face it. All this talk of no need for 2 associations in the same area is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that the EOSL want to have complete control of the East and it's self-preservation for their own ends.

Get the ERSJA in, see how it works, if it doesn't then let's look at it and sort it then.

Hang on, I thought it was me who was supposed to be having the meltdown, reality dawning

As has been said umpteen times nobody has an issue with the West joining (but you really want there to be, sorry) but it seems the North have zero interest, and the EoS are the Senior tier 6/7 league covering the east so rightly are standing their ground to stop the stupidity of having two separate leagues in the east of Scotland.

It's the SJFA's own approach that will ultimately sink them unless they change.  With the North not interested, how do the other regions get into the Pyramid and under different rules, has anyone answered that particular point? As it stands, it's all in or nobody in, and the North don't want in, so the SJFA will need to go back to member clubs and agree to a split in the Association for that to happen. 

It's either that, or the West leave the SJFA and plough their own furrow in the Pyramid.