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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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Just now, daleboy1969 said:

I know guys at linlithgow and boness . Not completelly overwhelmed with the experience . I prefer change from within without panic or foot stamping tantrums when compromise is required . I would suggest that in a few seasons the best teams in the LL will be the ex east junior clubs . My point being outwith east kilbride and spartans the east superleague was and i say WAS  better than  the lowland league .full intigration of the junior system into the pyramid was the answer with a pathway for the best clubs right to the top if they were capable . These clubs would have always been junior and in the ideal world would have still been able to compete in the scottish junior cup . Allas this was lost 

But that change was never going to come and wasn't going too until we all moved. The general feeling at our club is its a vast improvement. As I said on the other forum the teams that have prospered are those that have embraced it. A lot of the complaints have centred around the transitional season but that was required. I agree though we should have all merged in but for me the merger should happen away from the Juniors. I loved the Juniors but the organisation was poor. Our season wasn't wrecked when the Gretna SOuth Challenge cup 3rd round tie was put off it was held off until the next cupdate where look at the Junior cup causing chaos. These 4 ties that will be off tomorrow 2 of which were off last week are starting to cause havoc. That is the difference

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13 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I'm not sure I follow..... But I'll attempt to buy into the conversation. 

I never said anything about it not being democratic, out of interest what is the democratic process that has been involved in keeping someone in their 'paid' post for 20 years or so, unchallenged?

I'm all for democracy, but be careful what you ask for, democracy can work for you or against you, just look at the brexit mess we are in (please no one start a brexit debate, this was just an example on my part). 

In terms of moving to an association I know nothing about, I can assure you, my club did not do this. They looked into what was on offer from the sjfa and what was on offer from the eosfl. The club weighed up the pros and cons of both, the potential of both set ups and put it to a committee vote for yay or nay...... That was a well thought out, balanced, informed and democratic process...... Not a lemming jump into the dark or a hesitant remain just because we were used to something and were scared of change..... 

But by all means continue to utilise one or two isolated examples to try and further the narrative you are currently attempting to sell. Particularly, that the east clubs abandoned ship, into the dark, without thinking and they are worse off for it........i though, would disagree with that thought process. 

That may have been the case with your club .but the late scramble was a case off keeping up with the joneses .and the 2 clubs that returned certainly done so to avoid travelling long distances every second week . Anyway thats all in the past and thats where it should stay .the continued badgering of junior clubs to follow is now a bit teadious .let history show who chose the correct path . 

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12 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

I know guys at linlithgow and boness . Not completelly overwhelmed with the experience . I prefer change from within without panic or foot stamping tantrums when compromise is required . I would suggest that in a few seasons the best teams in the LL will be the ex east junior clubs . My point being outwith east kilbride and spartans the east superleague was and i say WAS  better than  the lowland league .full intigration of the junior system into the pyramid was the answer with a pathway for the best clubs right to the top if they were capable . These clubs would have always been junior and in the ideal world would have still been able to compete in the scottish junior cup . Allas this was lost 

How far back are you saying was better? I coached in the LL for 2 years 2014 to 2016, I can assure you that the standard in the LL is far greater than many think it is. Do I think some of the top junior sides in the West and those top eos teams would do well in the LL, yes I do. But not all that were in the old superleagues would, not over a season, and that is based on first hand game experience over 2 seasons.... Not one off games. 

Also, who is badgering clubs to move over? Clubs are free to choose what they wish. I disagree that it was keeping up with the joneses, clubs will have done their due diligence.....as would you for your club when the time comes, what you are suggesting would be like me suggesting the opposite..... That you stayed through blind loyalty to the sjfa, which I don't think would've been the case, I'm sure you would have weighed up all the circumstances prior to making your decision. 

Edited by Guest
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10 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

I'm not convinced you would have signed some of the players you signed if you had stayed junior

Couldn't agree more Alan. Hence the move and continued progress both on and off the park. The club is at the beginning of the journey now, and building steadily. 

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4 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

But that change was never going to come and wasn't going too until we all moved. The general feeling at our club is its a vast improvement. As I said on the other forum the teams that have prospered are those that have embraced it. A lot of the complaints have centred around the transitional season but that was required. I agree though we should have all merged in but for me the merger should happen away from the Juniors. I loved the Juniors but the organisation was poor. Our season wasn't wrecked when the Gretna SOuth Challenge cup 3rd round tie was put off it was held off until the next cupdate where look at the Junior cup causing chaos. These 4 ties that will be off tomorrow 2 of which were off last week are starting to cause havoc. That is the difference

I dont disagree with the chaos caused by the junior cup postponements but again easily sorted .no more replays and clubs playing floodlit games . All top junior league clubs should have floodlights . Facilities have stagnated in scotland because the authorities never bothered forcing changes . 

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I still have absolutely no idea why being 'junior' is so important. It's just a name. Nobody mourned the death of the SFL, the central league merging with the SFL is long forgotten about, as is the intermediate era. Differences were mended, clubs joined under the same banner and started playing each other and history is better for it.

Why is further integration so difficult to some.

Why does distinction that in their own head even if Armadale play kelty or east Stirlingshire's or LTHV in the same league under the exact same rules that they can separate themselves and hold onto a label? Its madness.

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Other than loss of Junior heritage and strong link to past glories and dislike of enforced change - can somebody (especially Junior club officials) please explain what is the point of not going Senior when joining the SFA Pyramid and how can this be realistically achieved?

Is it an age thing?  How old are your club officials?  The older we get the more we dislike change - this I can understand.

Edited by Pyramidic
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1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

How far back are you saying was better? I coached in the LL for 2 years 2014 to 2016, I can assure you that the standard in the LL is far greater than many think it is. Do I think some of the top junior sides in the West and those top eos teams would do well in the LL, yes I do. But not all that were in the old superleagues would, not over a season, and that is based on first hand game experience over 2 seasons.... Not one off games. 

Also, who is badgering clubs to move over? Clubs are free to choose what they wish. I disagree that it was keeping up with the joneses, clubs will have done their due diligence.....as would you for your club when the time comes, what you are suggesting would be like me suggesting the opposite..... That you stayed through blind loyalty to the sjfa, which I don't think would've been the case, I'm sure you would have weighed up all the circumstances prior to making your decision. 

Good post, generally the clubs who declared early were the ones who had been keeping an eye on it for a wee while after Kelty went, and when Dalkeith made the move, started to look at it in more depth.  We moved in the expectation that maybe 4 or 5 in total were going to move to make the EoS an 18 team league, but we wanted access to licencing first and foremost.

Some more clubs then sat up and took notice and yes, there probably was a lot of "well if they are moving then we will need to move as well" domino effect and that is understandable. It happened in East and Mid Lothian and Edinburgh.  It didn't quite happen in West Lothian and Fife, if it had we wouldn't be having a debate on ERJFA v EoS.

Clubs need to weigh up their own circumstances, where they want to be in 5-10 years time (not just next season) and then decide which is the better environment to get them there.

Edited by Burnie_man
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50 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Other than loss of Junior heritage and strong link to past glories and dislike of enforced change - can somebody (especially Junior club officials) please explain what is the point of not going Senior when joining the SFA Pyramid and how can this be realistically achieved?

Is it an age thing?  How old are your club officials?  The older we get the more we dislike change - this I can understand.

There is no such thing as “senior football” it’s a made up name.

 

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There is no such thing as “senior football” it’s a made up name.
 
so wait sjfa clubs have junior status but somehow clubs in the pyramid from Celtic to Tweedmouth somehow have no status?

Junior status entails being a member of an sjfa league. Senior status is being in a league in direct membership of the SFA & being under its jurisdiction ie the SPFL, HL, LL, EOS, SOS and NCL. Clubs under the SAFA have amateur status & clubs in the SWFA have welfare status.

Ideally we'd have no labels at all & just clubs but they exist because of Scotlands complex and fractured fitbaw structure.
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1 minute ago, GNU_Linux said:

so wait sjfa clubs have junior status but somehow clubs in the pyramid from Celtic to Tweedmouth somehow have no status?

Junior status entails being a member of an sjfa league. Senior status is being in a league in direct membership of the SFA & being under its jurisdiction ie the SPFL, HL, LL, EOS, SOS and NCL. Clubs under the SAFA have amateur status & clubs in the SWFA have welfare status.

Ideally we'd have no labels at all & just clubs but they exist because of Scotlands complex and fractured fitbaw structure.

Show me  where it says that these clubs have this mythical Senior status? Are they members of the Scottish Senior Football Association?

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3 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Show me  where it says that these clubs have this mythical Senior status? Are they members of the Scottish Senior Football Association?

Ffs, let it go will you. You know fine well that’s the term used for teams under the SFA and has been for a long, long time.  Why does it upset you so much?

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Show me  where it says that these clubs have this mythical Senior status? Are they members of the Scottish Senior Football Association?

How can some clubs have a status but others have no status? Senior clubs are clubs who are members of leagues in direct membership of the SFA. Theres never been a 'senior asociation' as its never been needed as said clubs play in leagues under sfa direct juridsction. the SJFA etc exist as these are affiliate organisations in non-direct membership to the sfa thus their clubs need a body to govern discipline etc due to said affiliate status. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Show me  where it says that these clubs have this mythical Senior status? Are they members of the Scottish Senior Football Association?

 

THE SCOTTISH FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION HANDBOOK 2018/2019

3.13 in respect of the Non-Professional Game:

(i)  to consider and develop activities to the mutual advancement and benefit of senior Leagues which are not the subject of Club Licensing and also the Affiliated National Associations;

iv)  to consider and issue recommendations to the Board (and other Standing Committees and Panels as appropriate) regarding matters in connection with senior Leagues which, as determined by the Board, are not the subject of Club Licensing and also the Affiliated National Associations

Season:
Means solely for the purposes of these rules and the Senior Online Registration system the playing season domestically in Scotland  will be the period starting on 1st July and ending on 30th June the following year with the exception of the Scottish Junior FA Season which shall end on the third Saturday in June each year;


Source: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/3998/scottish-fa-handbook-18_19.pdf

 

There will be many many references to "senior" over the years in SFA papers and documents. 

Please join us Kilbowie Benches in the new Senior Football Pyramid - forget this crap and let us all enjoy the game we love together.

 

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