Junior football, what is the future?

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, locheeboy said:

From what we have been told , the club who wins the league will enter a four way play off ERJFA, WRJFA, EoS and SoS with the winner progressing to the LL. If the winner is Lochee ( require a licence to play in this )  I would expect to be playing in the LL otherwise why would we participate in the play off. 

I don't doubt the current juniors will be moving to the pyramid - just the plan you're suggesting has so many complicating factors: the major one being  to which league champions are promoted or relegated? How are the playoffs going to work? Any East Superleague team from North of the Tay should surely be playing off against the North Superleague champion?

There's been nothing mentioned about the boundary changing, let alone what leagues teams will be relegated to. There'd be nothing stopping, say Spartans, Gala or Vale of Leithen choosing East Superleague if they were to be relegated. Where is the new Highland / Lowland boundary? If everything else is as you say this must have been discussed.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Cyclizine

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Robert James said:

A farce.......... maybe ?

If the EoSL champion club is unlicensed, then there would be no need for a play-off with the SoSL champions  However if Stranraer Reserves win the SoSL(as looks likely), would they be prevented from gaining automatic promotion to the Lowland ? Stirling Uni Reserves are already LL members, so there is a precedent. Do Reserve teams have to be separately licensed  to play at Tier 5  ? Is there a rule which covers this situation (ie preventing Reserve, or in the future, any Colts team from promotion to tier 5) if they become champions of a 'feeder' league at tier 6. (Don't assume from this post that I support the Reserve or Colts participation in the pyramid) 

If Stranraer Reserves are debarred from promotion, then the 15th club (probably Whitehill, Dalbeattie, or Vale) would be reprieved from relegation. The  remaining vacancy, to replace Selkirk, would be selected from applicants who hold an Entry License. 

 

Reserve sides are against the rules of the Lowland League, as far as i'm aware no Reserve side can be considered licensed so are ruled out by default. Then they're covered by the fact that no SPFL or LL club can have 2 teams within the scope of the Professional Game Board.

If Stranraer Reserves are SoS champions and the EoS Champion is unlicensed then the team finishing 15th will still be relegated and have to re-apply for membership to the Lowland League.

An example of this has already happened at the end of the 2015/16 season. Threave Rovers finished bottom of a 15 team league and chose not to re-apply, this allowed Civil Service Strollers and Hawick Royal Albert to be accepted as new members of the Lowland League for the 2016/17 season.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Any East Superleague North of Tay should surely be playing off against the North Superleague champion?

 

As the Highland League is meant to be open to membership applications and not a closed shop, the suggestion i've seen floated is that any Tier 6 champion North of the Tay would be required to apply for membership to the Highland League. As the historically the Highland League has had stricter requirements than SFA licensing it would be a way for clubs to avoid promotion. It also avoids having relegation from the Highland League.

Eventually you'd probably get a Highland League 2 out of it.

[locheeboy]

1 hour ago, Fife Journeyman said:

1 hour ago, Fife Journeyman said:

You've said you'd expect to play In LL if promoted which will take you a minimum of 2 years yet you acknowledge you are in no position to get floodlights which would be mandatory for that league.
What are Lochees short term and long term goals as you are contradicting yourself.
I'm sure if it was down to you it would be tier 6 as part of a pyramid in the same league as Linnlitghow.Boness etc.

I also hope that  contract extensions you announced recently are on Minimum wage and paying tax and insurance.

I said if we were licenced. At this stage we do not have money for floodlights, that may change you never know. Our short term and long term goals is to keep the club alive and competitive. We are not dreamers at Lochee we run our club well and live within our means. Our contract extensions are probably similar to your club and many others and you should worry yourself about it.

[Cyclizine]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As the Highland League is meant to be open to membership applications and not a closed shop, the suggestion i've seen floated is that any Tier 6 champion North of the Tay would be required to apply for membership to the Highland League. As the historically the Highland League has had stricter requirements than SFA licensing it would be a way for clubs to avoid promotion. It also avoids having relegation from the Highland League.

Eventually you'd probably get a Highland League 2 out of it.

The North Region, North Caledonian League and their place with respect to the Highland League seems to be an elephant in the room here. There's been lots of talk about what's definitely (possibly, maybe, perhaps...) happening in the Lowland area, but nothing about the the Highland area. If there is a recent email from Maxwell that's been sent around, surely he's mentioned the plans for the North Region?

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

The North Region, North Caledonian League and their place with respect to the Highland League seems to be an elephant in the room here. There's been lots of talk about what's definitely (possibly, maybe, perhaps...) happening in the Lowland area, but nothing about the the Highland area. If there is a recent email from Maxwell that's been sent around, surely he's mentioned the plans for the North Region?

The draft email from October only mentioned talks between Highland League and North Region would be looked at.

Seems simple enough to follow the Lowland League model. Instead of 16 as the maximum number of clubs set it to 20. Have the NCL, North Region Super League and East Region Super League (for North of Tay representatives) as the Tier 6 leagues. Their licensed champions can be involved in a promotion playoff  for one spot.

The Highland League sets a relegation rule where no club has to be relegated unless to balance the league at 20. That gives the current Highland League clubs a bit of a breather from fear of falling into the unknown.

With only 20 licensed North of Tay clubs outwith the SPFL right now and Golspie Sutherland not having floodlights, nothing will really change in the short term. Then deeper discussions over a Highland League 2 or more fluid structure between the tiers can take place.

[Cyclizine]

10 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The draft email from October only mentioned talks between Highland League and North Region would be looked at.

@locheeboy has said there's a more recent email confirming the East and West regions will move en masse; I presume it must also mention the NRJFA too.

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

@locheeboy has said there's a more recent email confirming the East and West regions will move en masse; I presume it must also mention the NRJFA too.

No email has been circulated by the EoS from the SFA as far as I am aware.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

@locheeboy has said there's a more recent email confirming the East and West regions will move en masse; I presume it must also mention the NRJFA too.

The closest thing i've seen to any discussions between Highland and North Region is the below post from the EoS Forum

On 19/12/2018 at 17:06, locheeboy said:

It is clear the ERJFA & WRJFA are both in at tier 6 ! There was a meeting last Thursday between the North Juniors & HL attended by Ian Maxwell. This was to discuss the pryamid within the North. The ERJFA were not there or invited and no Tayside clubs were invited. I stand by what I have said and if I am wrong I am more than prepared to admit I was wrong. 

Although i've seen no mention of this on the likes of FitbaNorth which I thought would of revived one of their topics on the pyramid to discuss such a meeting.

[Cyclizine]

6 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

No email has been circulated by the EoS from the SFA as far as I am aware.

Given the speed at which the last email appeared, the lack of the most recent one seems odd. Almost as if it's not as cut and dried as it's being made out to be...

[The Mantis]

9 hours ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

I’m sure the SFA see the requirement of floodlights as a way to stop the flood of licensing applications.

I can sympathise with that view, but they  can also claim to be making the LL more professional. By getting rid of Whitehill, that leaves only Vale and Civil to go. That makes the LL a bit more attractive to club 42 dropping down and in turn makes automatic relegation from SPFL2 a possibility. It also should be noted that before the season started the LL introduced a rule that all midweek kickoffs would be 7.45, i.e. teams without lights would have to find another ground. This was before Whitehill went bottom. Whitehill then tried all the nearest licensed clubs, and the nearest club that would offer their park to WW for (I think) the Kelty game on July 31, was Linlithgow whose quote was unrealistic to WW. Then whether the LL caved in or whatever, the game went ahead at Rosewell with a 7.00 start.

Edited December 31, 2018 by The Mantis

[Robert James]

On 31/12/2018 at 17:49, FairWeatherFan said:

Reserve sides are against the rules of the Lowland League, as far as i'm aware no Reserve side can be considered licensed so are ruled out by default. Then they're covered by the fact that no SPFL or LL club can have 2 teams within the scope of the Professional Game Board.

If Stranraer Reserves are SoS champions and the EoS Champion is unlicensed then the team finishing 15th will still be relegated and have to re-apply for membership to the Lowland League.

An example of this has already happened at the end of the 2015/16 season. Threave Rovers finished bottom of a 15 team league and chose not to re-apply, this allowed Civil Service Strollers and Hawick Royal Albert to be accepted as new members of the Lowland League for the 2016/17 season.

 

Helpful criteria, but doesn't Stirling University breach "B2" above ?  The Uni's 1st XI is in the Lowland, and the 2nd XI is in the EoSL.

A precedent ?

 

[Robert James]

On 31/12/2018 at 16:07, locheeboy said:

Those clubs that have applied are not members as yet. Only when the licence is approved do you become a member. Playing in the EoS or SoS does not give you Senior status.  Everthing will come down to the SFA board either approving derogation for those clubs or not approving.

I understand  that the Licensing sub Committee intends to meet before before the end of April, to consider all the licensing applications submitted by the 31/12/18 cut-off date. Does anyone know the date of this meeting ?

[Baxter's Nutmeg]

33 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Helpful criteria, but doesn't Stirling University breach "B2" above ?  The Uni's 1st XI is in the Lowland, and the 2nd XI is in the EoSL.

A precedent ?

 

The EoSFL does not have representation on the PGB, it’s on the Non Professional Game Board.

[Robert James]

14 minutes ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

The EoSFL does not have representation on the PGB, it’s on the Non Professional Game Board.

Noted thanks.

[Cameron Wilson]

On the topic of floodlights, whilst I agree it's fairly suss timing of the SFA to suddenly insist on them for licensed clubs, are we not overlooking the obvious?

For a significant chunk of the season any Junior club without floodlights can realistically only play games on Saturdays or Sundays kicking off early afternoon since there's just not enough daylight otherwise. That's surely part of the reason why clubs struggle to get games finished before the season is supposed to end. That and the big number of piddly cups, surely a few of those could be cut, and more meaningful ones retained, to make more space for better, more regular football. Floodlights would go a long way to helping with this obviously.

The SFA have probably thinking about making lights mandatory for a while. With a big influx of clubs seemingly on the horizon, not to mention last year's batch of former Juniors, now would be the time to introduce such a requirement, waiting would only cause even more problems and misunderstanding. Hopefully the powers-that-be are hard at work finding ways to channel monies to support clubs in this significant investment.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Cameron Wilson

[AlanCamelonfan]

4 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

On the topic of floodlights, whilst I agree it's fairly suss timing of the SFA to suddenly insist on them for licensed clubs, are we not overlooking the obvious?

For a significant chunk of the season any Junior club without floodlights can realistically only play games on Saturdays or Sundays kicking off early afternoon since there's just not enough daylight otherwise. That's surely part of the reason why clubs struggle to get games finished before the season is supposed to end. That and the big number of piddly cups, surely a few of those could be cut, and more meaningful ones retained, to make more space for better, more regular football. Floodlights would go a long way to helping with this obviously.

The SFA have probably thinking about making lights mandatory for a while. With a big influx of clubs seemingly on the horizon, not to mention last year's batch of former Juniors, now would be the time to introduce such a requirement, waiting would only cause even more problems and misunderstanding. Hopefully the powers-that-be are hard at work finding ways to channel monies to support clubs in this significant investment.

I think oneveryone of the other reasons for that the junions put games off too early. I can't remember when it was this season a huge chunk of junior games were off yet all bar one eosfl game was on.

[Vollyman]

I think oneveryone of the other reasons for that the junions put games off too early. I can't remember when it was this season a huge chunk of junior games were off yet all bar one eosfl game was on.

Junior clubs do not put games off the decision wether a game goes ahead or is off is made by a referee.

[Burnie_man]

8 hours ago, Robert James said:

I understand  that the Licensing sub Committee intends to meet before before the end of April, to consider all the licensing applications submitted by the 31/12/18 cut-off date. Does anyone know the date of this meeting ?

The next Licencing board meeting is February, that is the one you need to be approved at to be eligible from promotion, you need to have a Licence by 31st March.  There is a further meeting in May, and that is probably the last one in order to be eligible for next seasons Scottish Cup.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Burnie_man]

4 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

Hopefully the powers-that-be are hard at work finding ways to channel monies to support clubs in this significant investment.

I wouldn't bet on it.

Most people agree that floodlights are a long overdue additional requirement for Licencing, it's just that clarification is required on the timescale that clubs will be given to install them, whilst remaining Licenced.  As you say, it's a major investment plus there are many other issues such as planning and power supply to address.