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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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19 minutes ago, locheeboy said:

Does it really matter who has lights or who does not ? I would say the clubs in Tayside who have lights will probably need to upgrade to the rquired standard.

Since you need a licence for promotion to the Lowland League and now licencing requires floodlights that it does matter.

  • 1 Licenced Champion = Automatic promotion
  • 2 Licenced Champions = 2 legged playoff over 2 match days
  • 3 Licenced Champions = Single Round Robin or Double Round Robin over 3 or 6 match days
  • 4 Licenced Champions = 2 legged semi finals and either one or two legged final over 3 or 4 match days

While the 3 Licenced Champions route could be played out over 3 match days you're dealing with the issue of who goes first and venues for all the games leading to arguments. So i'd imagine it'd have to be agreed that a double round robin. Which extends the post season 3 times compared to what it is now for the EoS and SoS. Does that mean that all 4 leagues have to finish even earlier than what the EoS and SoS currently do? Or do players and coaching staff have to delay any post season holidays an extra couple weeks just in case they might be stuck in a playoff. And what about cups how do you organise your showpiece finals?

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There are currently too many cup competitions in the Juniors and EoS, time to trim some fat.

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28 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Another issue is the EOS, West and SOS are 16 teams playing 30 games but the East Superleague is 12 playing 22. Bit unfair to have one feeder playing 8 less games

 

Nothing to stop any of those 3 structures reducing their top leagues to 12.

 

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17 hours ago, Burnie_man said:
17 hours ago, Fife Journeyman said:
How will this affect Bonyrigg Rose? Probably the current favourites for promotion but don't have lights. Would they consider ground sharing with Newtongrange or Penicuik for a season so they can secure a licence.
It's all very messy

They'll likely be Licenced and have a set period of time to install floodlights.

IF they do grant a licence to Bonnyrigg, without a derogation about floodlights, then they will surely need to award a licence to the other eight (2018) applicants who also are devoid of lights (assuming of course these clubs meet all the other licensing  criteria}.  Whilst this might seem FAIR, given the late change in the rules), I can't personally see them doing this, nor can I see Bonnyrigg getting special treatment  if they become EoSL champions.   I may of course be wrong.

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Nothing to stop any of those 3 structures reducing their top leagues to 12.
 
non-starter as the SOS would have nowhere to punt 4 clubs. All other football in D&G is Sunday amateur since the Saturday ams folded a few years ago thus not enough clubs to even form a 2nd tier of the SOS. Besides why should 3 feeders reduce to conform to the size of one. 22 games is way too few games imo.
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2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

IF they do grant a licence to Bonnyrigg, without a derogation about floodlights, then they will surely need to award a licence to the other eight (2018) applicants who also are devoid of lights (assuming of course these clubs meet all the other licensing  criteria}.  Whilst this might seem FAIR, given the late change in the rules), I can't personally see them doing this, nor can I see Bonnyrigg getting special treatment  if they become EoSL champions.   I may of course be wrong.

I didn't say they would get special treatment, the likely outcome is that all clubs currently going through the Licence process who dont have lights will be granted derogation. No guarantee of course as this is the SFA,  but I think that will be the outcome.

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I'm not advocating it.  Just establishing it is a non argument against the east region.  You can run your own league anyway you see fit.

They had 36 teams. 

How would you advocate they split ?

Edited by superbigal
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The issue for Bonnyrigg is less the affordability of the lights, although its a huge chunk of cash, more the timing. Installing lights would, as far as I'm aware, require planning permission which can't be obtained overnight.
I have every confidence in the club to get matters sorted should we be fortunate enough to be in the position to need them, its the external factors that are the worry.

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16 hours ago, locheeboy said:

Burnie, I am happy with the advice we have been given by the ERJFA & SJFA that the Juniors are part of the pryamid from 2019-20 season. We have also been informed as to the change in the disciplne system from next season where we come under the SFA disciplne code although it will be governed by the SJFA. 

 

Have Lochee and the other north of Tay junior clubs been told they have to sign a contract about "pyramid" promotion and relegation, which I understand the Highland League clubs all had to sign.  As things stand, your club once licensed, and future ER Junior league champions, will join the HFL...... unless the SFA changes the Tiers 1-5 "boundary", which is probably unlikely in the short term (if ever ?).   Is this accepted by Lochee and the other junior clubs north of the "boundary" who want to join the pyramid ?  Has it been agreed by the HFL ? Will the SPFL clubs support a boundary change ?

For ANY football pyramid to operate, agreement about promotion and relegation, is paramount. Is this issue going to be resolved by all concerned in time for 2019/20? Unlikely perhaps. Do you agree ?

Licence applications will be automatically  rejected  by the Licensing sub Committee unless the club(s) concerned are in the pyramid at the time their application is considered. The "historic" rules which allowed Linlithgow and Banks of Dee to obtain SFA Membership as junior clubs, were discontinued years ago.

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55 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I didn't say they would get special treatment, the likely outcome is that all clubs currently going through the Licence process who dont have lights will be granted derogation. No guarantee of course as this is the SFA,  but I think that will be the outcome.

Derogation would be a sensible outcome for all  the clubs who are SFA Members,playing in the senior leagues, who have submitted licensing applications before the 'cut off'. However I question how it  can be applied to any clubs who are outside the pyramid on that date. The new Handbook is clear that the new rules apply from 2019. 

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1 minute ago, Robert James said:

Derogation would be a sensible outcome for all  the clubs who are SFA Members,playing in the senior leagues, who have submitted licensing applications before the 'cut off'. However I question how it  can be applied to any clubs who are outside the pyramid on that date. The new Handbook is clear that the new rules apply from 2019. 

I'm guessing that any future applicant can also apply for derogation, there's nothing to stop them, but I would find it unlikely that would be approved without very good reason eg. floodlights are already in progress but are 2 months from completion, that sort of thing.

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31 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Have Lochee and the other north of Tay junior clubs been told they have to sign a contract about "pyramid" promotion and relegation, which I understand the Highland League clubs all had to sign.  As things stand, your club once licensed, and future ER Junior league champions, will join the HFL...... unless the SFA changes the Tiers 1-5 "boundary", which is probably unlikely in the short term (if ever ?).   Is this accepted by Lochee and the other junior clubs north of the "boundary" who want to join the pyramid ?  Has it been agreed by the HFL ? Will the SPFL clubs support a boundary change ?

For ANY football pyramid to operate, agreement about promotion and relegation, is paramount. Is this issue going to be resolved by all concerned in time for 2019/20? Unlikely perhaps. Do you agree ?

Licence applications will be automatically  rejected  by the Licensing sub Committee unless the club(s) concerned are in the pyramid at the time their application is considered. The "historic" rules which allowed Linlithgow and Banks of Dee to obtain SFA Membership as junior clubs, were discontinued years ago.

From what we have been told , the club who wins the league will enter a four way play off ERJFA, WRJFA, EoS and SoS with the winner progressing to the LL. If the winner is Lochee ( require a licence to play in this )  I would expect to be playing in the LL otherwise why would we participate in the play off. 

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4 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Derogation would be a sensible outcome for all  the clubs who are SFA Members,playing in the senior leagues, who have submitted licensing applications before the 'cut off'. However I question how it  can be applied to any clubs who are outside the pyramid on that date. The new Handbook is clear that the new rules apply from 2019. 

Those clubs that have applied are not members as yet. Only when the licence is approved do you become a member. Playing in the EoS or SoS does not give you Senior status.  Everthing will come down to the SFA board either approving derogation for those clubs or not approving.

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Those clubs that have applied are not members as yet. Only when the licence is approved do you become a member. Playing in the EoS or SoS does not give you Senior status.  Everthing will come down to the SFA board either approving derogation for those clubs or not approving.
So what status would a non-licensed club like Eyemouth be? Its sure not junior, amateur or welfare. Big clue Eyemouth play in a senior league.
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From what we have been told , the club who wins the league will enter a four way play off ERJFA, WRJFA, EoS and SoS with the winner progressing to the LL. If the winner is Lochee ( require a licence to play in this )  I would expect to be playing in the LL otherwise why would we participate in the play off. 
You've said you'd expect to play In LL if promoted which will take you a minimum of 2 years yet you acknowledge you are in no position to get floodlights which would be mandatory for that league.
What are Lochees short term and long term goals as you are contradicting yourself.
I'm sure if it was down to you it would be tier 6 as part of a pyramid in the same league as Linnlitghow.Boness etc.
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You've said you'd expect to play In LL if promoted which will take you a minimum of 2 years yet you acknowledge you are in no position to get floodlights which would be mandatory for that league.
What are Lochees short term and long term goals as you are contradicting yourself.
I'm sure if it was down to you it would be tier 6 as part of a pyramid in the same league as Linnlitghow.Boness etc.
I also hope that all those contract extensions you announced recently are on Minimum wage and paying tax and insurance.
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38 minutes ago, locheeboy said:

From what we have been told , the club who wins the league will enter a four way play off ERJFA, WRJFA, EoS and SoS with the winner progressing to the LL. If the winner is Lochee ( require a licence to play in this )  I would expect to be playing in the LL otherwise why would we participate in the play off. 

Noted.

You didn't respond to my question about clubs having to sign an SFA contract about promotion and relegation.

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20 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It was always a matter of time. I'd like to think that it'll get challenged/clarified so that existing applications are honoured by derogations being accepted. It's a farce already, but it'll be even more so if the EoS Champion is unlicenced and the SoS Champion is Stranraer Reserves meaning no promotion.

A farce.......... maybe ?

If the EoSL champion club is unlicensed, then there would be no need for a play-off with the SoSL champions  However if Stranraer Reserves win the SoSL(as looks likely), would they be prevented from gaining automatic promotion to the Lowland ? Stirling Uni Reserves are already LL members, so there is a precedent. Do Reserve teams have to be separately licensed  to play at Tier 5  ? Is there a rule which covers this situation (ie preventing Reserve, or in the future, any Colts team from promotion to tier 5) if they become champions of a 'feeder' league at tier 6. (Don't assume from this post that I support the Reserve or Colts participation in the pyramid) 

If Stranraer Reserves are debarred from promotion, then the 15th club (probably Whitehill, Dalbeattie, or Vale) would be reprieved from relegation. The  remaining vacancy, to replace Selkirk, would be selected from applicants who hold an Entry License. 

Of course if (say) Cove Rangers defeat Albion Rovers in the SPFL relegation/promotion play-off, there would be an additional LL club, thereby requiring the relegation of the 15th placed LL club. anyway.     

Edited by Robert James
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