Junior football, what is the future?

[GNU_Linux]

Do we think it is possible that the West Region could join the pyramid this summer under the auspices of the SJFA, but the other regions stay outside the pyramid for now ?

Would the SJFA allow that to happen ?

Could happen up north as the NRJFA seems like a bit of afterthought in all of this. The east could happen too if there is no agreement re: Tayside clubs. Hopefully everything gets sorted and a proper pyramid is in place for next season.

 

[Burnie_man]

What is the EOSL scared of? According to what's been said they've already got the cream of the Juniors in their set-up. What's left in the ERSJFA surely won't trouble them in the play-offs.

Because artificial barriers should be removed, not maintained or indeed, increased. Particularly when theres two leagues covering the same area. It's insane.

[FairWeatherFan]

49 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

What is the EOSL scared of? According to what's been said they've already got the cream of the Juniors in their set-up. What's left in the ERSJFA surely won't trouble them in the play-offs.

Scared of, more like representing the best interests of their league and its membership. The fact you think it boils down to play-offs shows a certain short sightedness.

1. Why negotiate a 4 team play-off when it can be 3?
2. If it's 3 team they're a step closer to automatic promotion for the EoS Premier Champion.
3. Why lose EoS calibre players to East Region Juniors?
4. Why lose out on regional sponsors for competitions and clubs to East Region Juniors? 
5. Why lose out on casual fans when an EoS game is postponed who opt to go to a East Region Junior club game?
6. Why lose out on an already limited media attention that gets paid to non-SPFL leagues?
7. Why lose out on match officials to East Region Junior games?

Get it all under one EoS roof and they maximise all the opportunities available to them.

[Burnie_man]

Do we think it is possible that the West Region could join the pyramid this summer under the auspices of the SJFA, but the other regions stay outside the pyramid for now ?
Would the SJFA allow that to happen ?

I think that is a possibility. From my understanding there is no dissention on the PWG to the West and North joining en-masse to plug those tier 6/7 gaps.

[Beenzon-Toste]

11 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

1 hour ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

What is the EOSL scared of? According to what's been said they've already got the cream of the Juniors in their set-up. What's left in the ERSJFA surely won't trouble them in the play-offs.

Because artificial barriers should be removed, not maintained or indeed, increased. Particularly when theres two leagues covering the same area. It's insane.

ERSJFA covers the same area that they have covered for many, many years. Meanwhile the EOSL are happy to take teams from anywhere south of the Tay to the English Border as long as it satisfies their own agenda. Why are you not objecting to the WRSJFA coming at the same level if they also are within 'your area'?

Is it because you haven't yet got the cream of the west, and need them in your Utopian vision of what's best for Scottish football? You no longer want the ERSJFA because you've got what you want from them and don't want them to have any chance of upsetting your applecart.

Inclusion of the east juniors removes your perceived barriers and leaves it open to all, especially as they will need to conform to whatever criteria is laid down for inclusion.

Again, what are you scared of?

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

ERSJFA covers the same area that they have covered for many, many years. Meanwhile the EOSL are happy to take teams from anywhere south of the Tay to the English Border as long as it satisfies their own agenda. Why are you not objecting to the WRSJFA coming at the same level if they also are within 'your area'?

Is it because you haven't yet got the cream of the west, and need them in your Utopian vision of what's best for Scottish football? You no longer want the ERSJFA because you've got what you want from them and don't want them to have any chance of upsetting your applecart.

Inclusion of the east juniors removes your perceived barriers and leaves it open to all, especially as they will need to conform to whatever criteria is laid down for inclusion.

Again, what are you scared of?

I assume your post is part wind-up.

Any sane person looking at it sees that the West can move in en-masse as there is no existing Senior league in the area, they can fill the gap and everyone involved agrees that should happen.

In the East, any sane person looking at it scratches their heads as to why you would run two separate leagues covering the exact same geographical areas, it just continues the Juniors/Senior divide and is absolutely ridiculous. The Pyramid is about breaking down these artificial barriers.

I think everyone involved would be happy with either the remaining West Lothian and Fife clubs moving over to join the EoS so we have unity, or an organised merger of both leagues. Anything else is just daft and self-defeating.

Hope that helps.

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

ERSJFA covers the same area that they have covered for many, many years. Meanwhile the EOSL are happy to take teams from anywhere south of the Tay to the English Border as long as it satisfies their own agenda. Why are you not objecting to the WRSJFA coming at the same level if they also are within 'your area'?

Is it because you haven't yet got the cream of the west, and need them in your Utopian vision of what's best for Scottish football? You no longer want the ERSJFA because you've got what you want from them and don't want them to have any chance of upsetting your applecart.

Inclusion of the east juniors removes your perceived barriers and leaves it open to all, especially as they will need to conform to whatever criteria is laid down for inclusion.

Again, what are you scared of?

Only people scared are those in ersjfa scared of change. If they were scared of any teams why would we want them in our system if Armadale and whitburn were so scary why would we want them in our system. 

 

Actually how you say ersjfa have been in these areas for years is incorrect as ersjfa was only a coming together in 2002 for super league prior to that it was separate associations.

I guess your one of the numerous names you use to stir it up. 

[GNU_Linux]

ERSJFA covers the same area that they have covered for many, many years. Meanwhile the EOSL are happy to take teams from anywhere south of the Tay to the English Border as long as it satisfies their own agenda. Why are you not objecting to the WRSJFA coming at the same level if they also are within 'your area'?
Is it because you haven't yet got the cream of the west, and need them in your Utopian vision of what's best for Scottish football? You no longer want the ERSJFA because you've got what you want from them and don't want them to have any chance of upsetting your applecart.
Inclusion of the east juniors removes your perceived barriers and leaves it open to all, especially as they will need to conform to whatever criteria is laid down for inclusion.
Again, what are you scared of?

The west doesnt have an existing senior league (SOS is purely D&G sans one club) whereas the east does. Allowing both the EOSL & ERJFA means clubs a few miles apart in the same region playing in seperate league systems. As for the England point Berwick Rangers were EOSL members prior to joining the national leagues and their reserves have taken part since then as well.

Again explain on what valid grounds Lothian & Fife should have clubs in two different feeders. Theres zero. Even the wanting to remain junior arguement doesnt fly as any clubs in the pyramid are directly accountable & under the auspices of the SFA ie they'd be senior in effect.

[Beenzon-Toste]

30 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Scared of, more like representing the best interests of their league and its membership. The fact you think it boils down to play-offs shows a certain short sightedness.

1. Why negotiate a 4 team play-off when it can be 3?
2. If it's 3 team they're a step closer to automatic promotion for the EoS Premier Champion.
3. Why lose EoS calibre players to East Region Juniors?
4. Why lose out on regional sponsors for competitions and clubs to East Region Juniors? 
5. Why lose out on casual fans when an EoS game is postponed who opt to go to a East Region Junior club game?
6. Why lose out on an already limited media attention that gets paid to non-SPFL leagues?
7. Why lose out on match officials to East Region Junior games?

Get it all under one EoS roof and they maximise all the opportunities available to them.

I think this just proves my point.

1. Scared you will lose out in a 4 way play-off, and would rather take your chances in a 3 way play-off.

2. Scared there might be another team blocking your route.

3. Scared you'll lose players to a separate association? Strange one that.

4. Scared you'll lose sponsors? That's down to your association surely?

5. Scared you'll lose fans? Surely casual fans will go to whatever game attracts their interest.

6. What attention? Do you really think any non league football gets proper attention?

7. Match officials will be appointed to games regardless of what banner the game comes under.

[GNU_Linux]

I think this just proves my point.
1. Scared you will lose out in a 4 way play-off, and would rather take your chances in a 3 way play-off.
2. Scared there might be another team blocking your route.
3. Scared you'll lose players to a separate association? Strange one that.
4. Scared you'll lose sponsors? That's down to your association surely?
5. Scared you'll lose fans? Surely casual fans will go to whatever game attracts their interest.
6. What attention? Do you really think any non league football gets proper attention?
7. Match officials will be appointed to games regardless of what banner the game comes under.

Aye because wanting a common sense approach to non-league football & its future in the eastern half of Scotland=scared

[Beenzon-Toste]

40 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I assume your post is part wind-up.

Any sane person looking at it sees that the West can move in en-masse as there is no existing Senior league in the area, they can fill the gap and everyone involved agrees that should happen.

In the East, any sane person looking at it scratches their heads as to why you would run two separate leagues covering the exact same geographical areas, it just continues the Juniors/Senior divide and is absolutely ridiculous. The Pyramid is about breaking down these artificial barriers.

I think everyone involved would be happy with either the remaining West Lothian and Fife clubs moving over to join the EoS so we have unity, or an organised merger of both leagues. Anything else is just daft and self-defeating.

Hope that helps.

I have a different viewpoint to you, therefore I am to be classed as insane.

Thanks for the clarity. I should have grasped long ago that it's to be Burnie_man's way or no way.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

I have a different viewpoint to you, therefore I am to be classed as insane.

Thanks for the clarity. I should have grasped long ago that it's to be Burnie_man's way or no way.

You have a different viewpoint, ok so feel free to detail the benefits to clubs of there being two competing leagues in the East of Scotland rather than unifying them into the one league.  Why would the West benefit from a unified Senior league, but not the East.

Go on, prove that you're not just another troll.

[Beenzon-Toste]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You have a different viewpoint, ok so feel free to detail the benefits to clubs of there being two competing leagues in the East of Scotland rather than unifying them into the one league.  Why would the West benefit from a unified Senior league, but not the East.

Go on, prove that you're not just another troll.

Hmm, more name-calling. Ah, well. Not unexpected.

Main benefit is that clubs are allowed to stay within whatever association that they wish to be in, whilst still being part of the pyramid system you so desperately wish all teams to be part of.

I suspect this has less to do with 2 east competing leagues and more to do with the fact that the West will only have one and you're upset that the WRSJFA clubs did not follow last season's pied piper into the EOSL.

 

[Burnie_man]

Hmm, more name-calling. Ah, well. Not unexpected.
Main benefit is that clubs are allowed to stay within whatever association that they wish to be in, whilst still being part of the pyramid system you so desperately wish all teams to be part of.
I suspect this has less to do with 2 east competing leagues and more to do with the fact that the West will only have one and you're upset that the WRSJFA clubs did not follow last season's pied piper into the EOSL.
 

You don't have an answer, so at least we now know where you're coming from. You're here for a noise up.

[Marten]

26 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Hmm, more name-calling. Ah, well. Not unexpected.

Main benefit is that clubs are allowed to stay within whatever association that they wish to be in, whilst still being part of the pyramid system you so desperately wish all teams to be part of.

I suspect this has less to do with 2 east competing leagues and more to do with the fact that the West will only have one and you're upset that the WRSJFA clubs did not follow last season's pied piper into the EOSL.

 

The whole point is that there is now an artificial divide in football. There is no real difference in identity/culture between senior and junior non-league football. It's simply non-league football, whatever label you put on it. It's pointless to continue having different "grades" covering (roughly) the same area. In my opinion, an important aspect of a pyramid is to bring all non-league clubs together in the same system so the best teams play in the LL (or HL) and the next best in the appropriate league for their geographical area.

[Beenzon-Toste]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

13 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Hmm, more name-calling. Ah, well. Not unexpected.
Main benefit is that clubs are allowed to stay within whatever association that they wish to be in, whilst still being part of the pyramid system you so desperately wish all teams to be part of.
I suspect this has less to do with 2 east competing leagues and more to do with the fact that the West will only have one and you're upset that the WRSJFA clubs did not follow last season's pied piper into the EOSL.
 

You don't have an answer, so at least we now know where you're coming from. You're here for a noise up.

Seems to have worked.

But, I thought I had answered your question, perhaps it's just that you chose to ignore it. (No surprise there.)

Or have I got near to hitting the nail on the head?

[drs]

So Beenz, you looking forward to all of the West clubs becoming Senior next season?

[pipedreamer]

My completely own opinion but IF, and that’s a big IF, there is to be erjfa and EoS covering the same area then the sfa/pwg has to take the lead and add some conditions for the good of the game going forward. 

1) A timetable for merging the two leagues into a single unified body in the East of Scotland below the Tay must be agreed and adhered to. This allows juniors to come on board keeping what they determine as their ‘identity’ while working towards a single body/league covering the Current area. The term junior over time should be removed to create non league football which should be easier to market to potential sponsors etc.

2) the pyramid should contain a Lowland League below the Tay, an East of Scotland league and West of Scotland League and below that the regions should be split accordingly, the west has a structure to bolt straight on, the east is working on that but two region wide divisions with geographical divisions below creates a nice wide bottom to the pyramid.

3) the East of Scotland premier non league division can include the teams north of the Tay short term, but they are ineligible for promotion play offs to the Lowland League. The league rules should state that the highest placed licensed eligible team enters the playoff. 

4) promotion is mandatory if you are licensed and eligible. If clubs with fan bases in the 30-50 region can sustain Lowland league football or super league football then clubs with fan bases in the hundreds are more than capable.

This is all my own opinion but if there is to be two overlapping leagues short term to get the pyramid in place then there needs to be a timetable going forward to reach the end goal of one structure in the east and west of the Lowland region.

For me, removing the archaic term ‘junior’ has to be a goal going forward as it holds the game back. It may mean something to the 50+ year olds attending matches in junior football but outside of that it really doesn’t mean anything to anyone. Particularly those who dont spectate at junior matches, they associate it with kids football. For commercial purposes this must surely hold the game back.

 

*edit to remove wrong quote.

Edited November 29, 2018 by pipedreamer

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

I think this just proves my point.

1. Scared you will lose out in a 4 way play-off, and would rather take your chances in a 3 way play-off.

2. Scared there might be another team blocking your route.

3. Scared you'll lose players to a separate association? Strange one that.

4. Scared you'll lose sponsors? That's down to your association surely?

5. Scared you'll lose fans? Surely casual fans will go to whatever game attracts their interest.

6. What attention? Do you really think any non league football gets proper attention?

7. Match officials will be appointed to games regardless of what banner the game comes under.

1-6 Nobody's scared

1&2 They'd rather their league season and cup competitions be the focus and not have to have it all boil down to the final couple of weeks in a play-off situation. If the EoS Premier doesn't have to schedule their season around end of season play-offs it gives them an extra week or two space out the league campaign and a cup final.

3. If a East Super League club can offer promotion to the Lowland League some players will choose it as an easier pathway. Especially if there is an equal financial offer from a EoS Premier team projected to be mid-table and the East Super League club is expected to win their league.

4. EoS has sponsors and the East Region has sponsors. Put it all in one big pot of money standards can be raised .

5. Casual fans will go to whatever game attracts their interest and the EoS want that interest to be in their league members not someone else's.

6. I don't think it gets proper attention, which is why I called it limited. Why lose that limited space when a non-league writer in a national newspaper decides to talk about something occuring in the East Region. Then I don't know the local papers well enough but there's going to be some that split coverage between East Region and EoS. Or East Region alone. In which case the EoS would rather have all those clubs under their banner so that the general awareness of their league is stronger.

7. Finite number of match officials and the EoS doesn't want split interests. That way they can get those that are considered to be the best officials assigned to their games.

[Fife Journeyman]

My completely own opinion but IF, and that’s a big IF, there is to be erjfa and EoS covering the same area then the sfa/pwg has to take the lead and add some conditions for the good of the game going forward. 
1) A timetable for merging the two leagues into a single unified body in the East of Scotland below the Tay must be agreed and adhered to. This allows juniors to come on board keeping what they determine as their ‘identity’ while working towards a single body/league covering the Current area. The term junior over time should be removed to create non league football which should be easier to market to potential sponsors etc.
2) the pyramid should contain a Lowland League below the Tay, an East of Scotland league and West of Scotland League and below that the regions should be split accordingly, the west has a structure to bolt straight on, the east is working on that but two region wide divisions with geographical divisions below creates a nice wide bottom to the pyramid.
3) the East of Scotland premier non league division can include the teams north of the Tay short term, but they are ineligible for promotion play offs to the Lowland League. The league rules should state that the highest placed licensed eligible team enters the playoff. 
4) promotion is mandatory if you are licensed and eligible. If clubs with fan bases in the 30-50 region can sustain Lowland league football or super league football then clubs with fan bases in the hundreds are more than capable.
This is all my own opinion but if there is to be two overlapping leagues short term to get the pyramid in place then there needs to be a timetable going forward to reach the end goal of one structure in the east and west of the Lowland region.
For me, removing the archaic term ‘junior’ has to be a goal going forward as it holds the game back. It may mean something to the 50+ year olds attending matches in junior football but outside of that it really doesn’t mean anything to anyone. Particularly those who dont spectate at junior matches, they associate it with kids football. For commercial purposes this must surely hold the game back.
 
*edit to remove wrong quote.

Great post. At the end of the day Beenz or whatever other names he uses are trying to look after there own club which isn't a bad thing but if 2/3 clubs are holding back a sensible pyramid structure because Tayside clubs don't want to be part of the HL it's insane.
I feel for the club's in these areas who want in theory back to playing the top Fife and Lothians teams on a regular basis but unless the border was moved from say the Tay to Brechin it's not achievable.
For what it's worth I think the line should be moved as none of the Dundee based teams seem to harbour a move to HL.
The only downside is you could have a Dundee team travelling to the borders for a tier 7 league game. This is solved with a regional tier 7/8. All above basically gives you an old ERSJFA league but in a pyramid under SFA and EOSL which is surely much better.
Can I ask anyone in Tayside that should they reach tier 5 They would be happier making trips to Glasgow and Annan etc other than Aberdeen and Inverness??