Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

Thanks Robert. If I am being honest I was playing devils advocate to a certain extent because, well, the Juniors don't do themselves any favours with things like making up the fixture list as they go along and they attract a lot of stick for things like that, but all the same I felt they still have something worth defending despite all their faults.

I agree with everything you wrote. The points about the NCL and SoSL are particularly relevant here. They don't have an inflated sense of self-importance which the SJFA appears to have (I'm making a distinction here between the SJFA and Junior clubs as a whole) and have positive relationships with the rest of the the Scottish league (albeit NCL isn't part of the pyramid).

I think the best thing to come of all of this is the ESOL's handling of it all. Dare I say they look like a model football association after all this. The almost went out of existence by agreeing to be a feeder league for the LL a few years ago and lost their best teams, plus later Easthouses and Craigroyston who ironically left for the juniors who they felt offered more games and a better standard at that time. A year ago they had what, 11 teams, before Kelty joined? Now they have 39. They've been welcoming of all newcomers, despite the inconvenience and organisational burden the sudden influx is going to cause, and kept everyone up to date with the essential info on their website in a timely fashion. Meanwhile, I was bemused to see the SFJA say absolutely nothing during the East region exodus except, after it was all over, "no-one can leave the league without giving a year's notice." A rule which they have failed to enforce on numerous occasions previously as other posters have demonstrated. The SFJA look incompetent at best and at worst, deliberately trying to scare clubs into not leaving the junior ranks.

There's clearly been a lot of bad craic gone back and forth between both sides. But the most lacking in much sense I have to say is the Juniorfitba twitter you mention. Passion is one thing but letting it cloud your judgement to that extent does nobody any favours. It's almost like a parody account.

Either way I think now is the time for the SJFA to take what is offered by the SFA and enter at tier 6 and save everyone a lot of hassle. Otherwise what has happened in the east will most likely happen again this time next year in the west.

Agreed and thanks.

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, stanley said:

Not sure if you think you are agreeing with me or not but your post is exactly the point I was making.   That type of crazy rule exists in both the juniors and the Scottish Premier (just that the details are different).

Typo on my phone.  Was supposed to say clubs.  It's open to all clubs but was clearly set up for the sake of two.

I was agreeing with you! 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I see no issues at all with continuing the Junior Cup and widening it to all non-league clubs.

As long as clubs have the right to withdraw without penalty prior to the first round id not have any complaints.

[archieb]

3 hours ago, Stag Nation said:

I see no issues at all with continuing the Junior Cup and widening it to all non-league clubs.

The overriding issue preventing any such move in the foreseeable future, however desirable, is the bad blood between the current SJFA top brass and the clubs that have "defected" to EoSL (starting with Kelty).

Until there's a reconciliation of some sort (and probably a new hierarchy on at least one side), there's no realistic prospect of any national non-league competition involving both Junior and so-called senior clubs, either as an extended Junior Cup or as a completely new tournament.

[cmontheloknow]

5 minutes ago, archieb said:

The overriding issue preventing any such move in the foreseeable future, however desirable, is the bad blood between the current SJFA top brass and the clubs that have "defected" to EoSL (starting with Kelty).

Until there's a reconciliation of some sort (and probably a new hierarchy on at least one side), there's no realistic prospect of any national non-league competition involving both Junior and so-called senior clubs, either as an extended Junior Cup or as a completely new tournament.

Cmon Archie there's no 'so-called' about it - it is what it is. Being (more) in the SFA rather than the SJFA means no more reinstatements for starters, a nice little earner for the SJFA coffers if ever there was one seeing as all paperwork is done by the SFA. 

As all clubs are registered members of the SFA until granted a Club License, then the main difference between yesterday and today is being in an affiliated league rather than an affiliated association. But that simple difference carries so many benefits not available to the SJFA membership.

[superbigal]

The overriding issue preventing any such move in the foreseeable future, however desirable, is the bad blood between the current SJFA top brass and the clubs that have "defected" to EoSL (starting with Kelty).
Until there's a reconciliation of some sort (and probably a new hierarchy on at least one side), there's no realistic prospect of any national non-league competition involving both Junior and so-called senior clubs, either as an extended Junior Cup or as a completely new tournament.

But a lot of the sjfa top brass have defected to the eos.
Top man In the east region has gone.
Wonder if they have actually resigned their positions yet.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Pie and Bovril mobile app

[archieb]

6 minutes ago, superbigal said:

But a lot of the sjfa top brass have defected to the eos.
Top man In the east region has gone.
Wonder if they have actually resigned their positions yet.

Maybe they have to give 12 months' notice! 

[craigkillie]

11 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Its absolutely mental that Darvel are being allowed to skip this weekend. The good thing is clubs like Darvel and the others who skipped games for stag dos and going to ayr races can be left to do so in the junior game and the other clubs can go on and run things properly.

The problem isn't really with what are essentially not much more than recreational players sometimes being unable to fulfil fixtures during a league season (or in this case, several weeks after a "normal" league season might finish), it's with a system which regularly leaves teams not knowing their fixture schedule until days beforehand.  If it's not clear exactly when you will and won't be playing games, then these situations are always going to arise.

[Black & Red Socks]

They are indeed dross and in fact offer relatively little to the community; indeed they regularly don't even bother to pay their rent to the local council and then whine to the local paper about how hard done to they are. But that's beside the point that you bizarrely seem to think that they and their ilk are the cornerstone of the game in Scotland, when in fact it would carry on absolutely fine with or without them.  

This really doesn’t help, a fan of a club up the pecking order calling a club further down that pecking order ‘dross’ smacks of the billy big time attitude Old Firm fans are accused of displaying - and are rightly castigated for - when being condescending to those clubs below them that they invariably also consider ‘dross’, while they themselves are considered ‘dross’ by the European powers.

Morton, or whoever it may be that you support, will - wrongly - be considered dross by so many in the Scottish game, and I’ll bet it’s something you will not take kindly to.....so why should a fan of any other team accept such an insult from you?

You’ve made so many good and valid points in this thread that are being tainted by insulting language that is entirely unnecessary.

Can we not just argue the merits of what is evolving in the game without trying to aggrandise our own teams - or our own opinions - by belittling others perceived by our own prejudices to be less worthy? Probably not I guess, but it is, nonetheless, how we should try and progress the argument.

[Cameron Wilson]

7 hours ago, virginton said:

It's a top-down rather than bottom-up process and so your point is invalid. 

My point isn't invalid whatsoever nor is football top-down. Quite the opposite - at a very young age kids first learn football at home from their family, friends and immediate surroundings. They aren't born already knowing what football is and how to play it, then immediately go directly into the professional structure. All youngsters pass through grassroots football for at least some time,  even if, as you rightly say, the best ones are usually hoovered up early doors.  

You can make an argument that Scottish football would get on just fine without the juniors, that's not unreasonable. But no grassroots as a whole = no football. 

Think about it from a wider perspective. Juniors, non-league, amateurs play a role by offering somewhere to play for those who don't make it pro. There would be far less kids entering the game knowing that they would have absolutely nowhere to play organised football unless they were one of a tiny percentage lucky enough to make it to play in the pro or semi-pro leagues. Also think about modern society, there's no kids playing football in the street anymore, there's tons more distractions now such as playstation and tons of leisure choices that were not available a few decades ago. There needs to be as much football as possible to maximise the chance of getting people involved. If the juniors and other grassroots football ceased to exist there would be a massive vacuum and people would turn to other sports. Given how crap our football team has been for so long, success in another sport might draw people away from football. We can't afford to be complacent.

Football is part of the fabric of society in Scotland and in part that is due to the historical legacy of all those who have contributed to the game as it stands today. Including the juniors and all enthusiasts for the game at all levels.

Anyways. Good debate thanks. I think I've said enough on this for now.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Cameron Wilson

[daleboy1969]

8 hours ago, archieb said:

Maybe they have to give 12 months' notice! 

Thankfully thats not the case .these guys have shown us what they were all about over the last couple off weeks .they done nothing for the region tbat paid them to look after there intrests .one stood up and poured scone on the very idea of clubs gaining licence 's from the sfa .then in a whim move and drop the east region in the mire .true upstanding subjects indeed . These fellas will seek the same self preservation in the new set up and lets facd it they are hardly men of principle .good riddance to them and all the best to the rest .

[shuggie123]

2 hours ago, daleboy1969 said:

Thankfully thats not the case .these guys have shown us what they were all about over the last couple off weeks .they done nothing for the region tbat paid them to look after there intrests .one stood up and poured scone on the very idea of clubs gaining licence 's from the sfa .then in a whim move and drop the east region in the mire .true upstanding subjects indeed . These fellas will seek the same self preservation in the new set up and lets facd it they are hardly men of principle .good riddance to them and all the best to the rest .

They must want to have their cake and eat it.

[superbigal]

So if the original survey is about. Can anyone pinpoint any defectors who either

A: Said no to the pyramid

B: Have a delegate either on the ersjfa or sjfa

C: Both of the above

 

 

Now I am for the moves but it is time to publically list anyone who needs to give their 12 months notice to hand their blazer back.

 

 

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[Cameron Wilson]

In case anyone's interested here's the SJFA constitution including the rule stating clubs have to give a year's notice before leaving a region (page 8):

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/Constitution&Rules/SJFA Constitution Rules 2017-18.pdf

Edited June 9, 2018 by Cameron Wilson

[pipedreamer]

4 minutes ago, Cameron Wilson said:

In case anyone's interested here's the SJFA constitution including the rule stating clubs have to give a year's notice before leaving a region (page 8):

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/Constitution&Rules/SJFA Constitution Rules 2017-18.pdf

This has already been put on here and clubs including Armadale who are the biggest voice on castigating those leaving confirmed that the rule only applies to clubs moving regions. Kelty left last season, TJ tried to pull that one AFTER they had left, and quite rightly it was proven wrong. I wouldn’t be surprised if he tables a motion at the AGM to punish clubs by the way of withholding prize money or some sort of they leave.

[1320Lichtie]

I see there are 3 conferences set up. How many teams get promoted from that?

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

I see there are 3 conferences set up. How many teams get promoted from that?

Champions playoff then face sos champions if licneed for lowland league. Undecided probably top 4 or 5 from each conference will make up a premier league. In all honesty with the teams that have left being in eosfl premiership is no problem for me as it' mostly like east super league 

[shuggie123]

After all the discussion about Linlithgow and Bo'ness either both going or both staying so that they still have their derbies, it must be a blow that they have ended up in different leagues and may not play each other for years to come.

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, shuggie123 said:

After all the discussion about Linlithgow and Bo'ness either both going or both staying so that they still have their derbies, it must be a blow that they have ended up in different leagues and may not play each other for years to come.

I rather suspect the two scenarios will be one (or both) end up in the Lowland League for 2019/20, or one (or both) end up in the EoS "Premier" for 2019/20.  I don't think they will be strangers for long.

[daleboy1969]

49 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

This has already been put on here and clubs including Armadale who are the biggest voice on castigating those leaving confirmed that the rule only applies to clubs moving regions. Kelty left last season, TJ tried to pull that one AFTER they had left, and quite rightly it was proven wrong. I wouldn’t be surprised if he tables a motion at the AGM to punish clubs by the way of withholding prize money or some sort of they leave.

You have rightly stated armadale were against mass migration .we felt junior football could and should have been repaired from within .we believe that pyramid inclusion is a must in order to allow bigger clubs to develop.we would like to see the introduction of an under 20/ development league within each region .we thought junior football required localised ( we supported a failed bid for reconstruction on this basis) we always thought that the sulerleagues should have a minimum standatď of ground facilities .

What now angers our club and members is the fact 3 off our 4 sjfa delegates ( the men who should have been our voice at the top table) have ran to the very association they mocked .these people should be removed from football as they have no intrests other than looking sfter number 1 . I ill not miss them . All the best to the clubs who move up thru the ranks . We must now repair and modernise junior football in order to secure its future .