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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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47 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

SoS is tier 6. Having six leagues (the three junior superleagues, SoS, EoS and maybe the North Caley league) feeding into two at the first regionalised step would be nothing out of the ordinary, if you look at other country's pyramid systems around Europe. There are examples elsewhere that show that everything doesn't need to be neatly split on geography. In Holland, for example, the semi-pro and amateur leagues at the lower levels are split based on whether home games are played on Saturdays (Dutch Reformed leaning teams as Holland has a Calvinist bible belt that still keeps the Sabbath the way Scotland used to) or Sundays (RC and socialist leaning teams) as much as they are on geography. Will be interesting to see what happens with the SJFA's EGM and how the SFA will handle this issue publicly in the months ahead. 

To be honest, I don't think the Dutch situation should be used as an example for the pyramid over here. I'm originally from The Netherlands and I can categorically state that the Dutch "pyramid" structure is a great example of how to NOT set it up in Scotland. Third tier teams that don't want to get promoted (as they are generally from the bible belt & are happy to just stay non-league) basically choke the system and block the route to the professional leagues for ambitious non-league teams. These teams are in terms of support and budget on a par with teams in the top half of the second tier. Them refusing to get promoted and effectively playing a division too low, makes it very difficult for other teams to try and get into the second tier.

I'd ideally like to see all juniors in the pyramid, but we need to ensure that teams that don't want to get promoted don't block off the route for everyone else. I also think it's madness to have 2 feeder leagues covering the same geographic area. As opposed to the difference in day they play in Dutch non-league, there is no rational argument why LL feeder leagues in the East of Scotland should be split in 2 separate systems.

Edited by Marten
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The headline for this thread the juniors whats the future.

Plain and simple you set yourselfs aloof and were not interested in the pyramid set up.but wanted to stay in your own world whilst hoping to play in the scottish cup. this i dont think! is going to happen for all. a few forward thinking clubs saw this.and decided to apply to the east of scotland tear6. NOW your trying to come up with plans to put your super league clubs in the top.

The future!!! apply to the e.o.s or the s.o.s. because i dont this being sorted anytime soon. or if the grade ( junior) means that much to you stay put.re-orginse your leugeas as you never played in the scottish cup before.the s.f.a.brought this in 11years ago to try and unifie but Again you stood back as you thought you were better than that.

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1 minute ago, tombrown said:

The headline for this thread the juniors whats the future.

Plain and simple you set yourselfs aloof and were not interested in the pyramid set up.but wanted to stay in your own world whilst hoping to play in the scottish cup. this i dont think! is going to happen for all. a few forward thinking clubs saw this.and decided to apply to the east of scotland tear6. NOW your trying to come up with plans to put your super league clubs in the top.

The future!!! apply to the e.o.s or the s.o.s. because i dont this being sorted anytime soon. or if the grade ( junior) means that much to you stay put.re-orginse your leugeas as you never played in the scottish cup before.the s.f.a.brought this in 11years ago to try and unifie but Again you stood back as you thought you were better than that.

Perfectly put. I understood why junior clubs got a chance at the SC, but never agreed with it and never thought it would lead to anything other than the big clubs take take taking. Although it has to have had a bearing on the clubs decisions that are now on the move to the Eos 

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15 minutes ago, tombrown said:

The headline for this thread the juniors whats the future.

Plain and simple you set yourselfs aloof and were not interested in the pyramid set up.but wanted to stay in your own world whilst hoping to play in the scottish cup. this i dont think! is going to happen for all. a few forward thinking clubs saw this.and decided to apply to the east of scotland tear6. NOW your trying to come up with plans to put your super league clubs in the top.

The future!!! apply to the e.o.s or the s.o.s. because i dont this being sorted anytime soon. or if the grade ( junior) means that much to you stay put.re-orginse your leugeas as you never played in the scottish cup before.the s.f.a.brought this in 11years ago to try and unifie but Again you stood back as you thought you were better than that.

The South of Scotland League is no home for the Glasgow area Junior clubs (in any great number). It would kill it for the present membership.

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I do agree with that.but for a west league to start in time for the new season there needs to be appitite from west based clubs. if 10 or 12 said they wanted to give it go this is what you do.adapt the e.o.s.rules pick a board amoungst the clubs.ask the e.o.s.fixture secatary to do you fixtures arrange board meetings once a month. can do it by confrence calls. SORTED  one season then see if you can expand. 

 

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54 minutes ago, tombrown said:

The headline for this thread the juniors whats the future.

Plain and simple you set yourselfs aloof and were not interested in the pyramid set up.but wanted to stay in your own world whilst hoping to play in the scottish cup. this i dont think! is going to happen for all. a few forward thinking clubs saw this.and decided to apply to the east of scotland tear6. NOW your trying to come up with plans to put your super league clubs in the top.

The future!!! apply to the e.o.s or the s.o.s. because i dont this being sorted anytime soon. or if the grade ( junior) means that much to you stay put.re-orginse your leugeas as you never played in the scottish cup before.the s.f.a.brought this in 11years ago to try and unifie but Again you stood back as you thought you were better than that.

Thought most of your posts were pretty sensible, but now you've joined the rest and slagging off the Juniors, nobody set themselves aloof , the West Teams didn't think the SOS was a viable entry to the pyramid, that was their decision rightly or wrongly , you are now quite happy to accept teams from the Junior leagues so all is well with those teams, again the Big Cup comes up , the number of Junior teams that have taken part are few. Be assured some clubs are not sitting back thinking they are better, but your generalisation does you no favours.

Edited by GLENAFTON93
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1 hour ago, Cyril said:

If Preston Athletic or Tynecastle suddenly decided they wanted to become junior clubs, they wouldnt be placed into the Super league they would be asked to join the bottom league and work their way up so why should it be different going the other way?

I am amazed that Linlithogw, Boness, Broxburn, Newtongrange, Penicuik and the likes haven't made the move but they must have their reasons and that has to be respected.

But if the super leagues are at least on par with the standard of the lowland league .why could the juniors top league not be tear 6 playing off for entry to lowland league..east super, WEST super , EOS  and sosfl. 4 way play off ....WHY IS THIS IMPOSSIBLE TO GRASP .

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7 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Currently on the night shift and been thinking about whether the Tay bridge is a "fair" boundary for the HL/LL split as some on here think it's not. So, taking Lochee United as a random "Tayside" team, I thought I'd work it out.

Now I forgot Perth is south of the Tay bridge so there's a coupla clubs I made Highland when, technically, they should be Lowland. So whit?

Anyway if/when the HL gets its act together for feeder league I just made the assumption it would be made of the NCL, NRJ and ERJ North of the Tay. I "seeded" them based on league position this year (giving each of the three equal status) to give me 32 clubs for the feeder leagues with a North/South split (including "relegated" Strathspey Thistle and Fort William as they move to a 16 team league). For clubs in/around Aberdeen it was random whether they went North/South. I don't care if Hermes play a coupla hundred metres south of Hall Russell United, etc.

North: Strathspey Thistle, Fort William, Orkney, Invergordon, Golspie, Thurso, Alness, St Duthus, Inverness Athletic, Bunillidh, Dufftown, Maud, Colony Park, Dyce Juniors, Hermes, Ellon United

South: Banks o' Dee, Lochee United, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Penmure, Montrose Roselea, Jeanfield Swifts, Forfar West End, Downfield, Kirriemuir Thistle, Dundee North End, Luncarty, Dundee Violet, Kinnoull, Culter, Hall Russell United, Stonehaven

First of all I figured out the time taken to travel to an away game for Lochee United this year in the East Region and got an average of 56 minutes per match. Longest time travelling was 86 minutes to Penicuik.

In that South division Lochee's average travel time would be 35 minutes with a maximum of 76 minutes up to Aberdeen.

So, to recap, in a Highland League "South" division travel times for Tayside clubs would drop by nearly 50%. I dare say would drop even more for clubs a bit further North in Angus like Roselea and, let's face it, the majority of clubs wont really expecting (or aiming) for 5th tier anytime soon from either the North or East Juniors. Any 7th/8th/9th tier if the pyramid was to keep growing would almost certainly be further regionalised anyway. So if keeping local derbies and travel to a minimum is an issue for some Tayside clubs joining the pyramid it'll only be a minority of them.

But that aint the issue. The issue would be if a Tayside club made it to tier 5. So "relegating" either Vale of Leithen or Lossiemouth with Lochee taking their place the average travel time for the Highland League would be 2.5 hours with over 4.5 hours to get to Wick. "f**k that noise" I hear them saying in Downfield.

But, having said that, it's not THAT bad compared to the Lowland League where the average travel time is just shy of two hours with it just under three hours to Dalbeattie and still well shy of the time and effort Fort William spend every two weeks to be shafted and they manage on far less crowds and resources.

Coupled with that you could argue that, should a 6th tier be introduced under the Highland League, it's not like Lochee United (if they made it there) would be the only Tayside club to ever progress that far. Look at the absolute dross in the North division of the tier I created. Luncarty, Kirrie Thistle, Forfar W.E etc would also fancy their chances of beating that lot in a play off for promotion. It'd take a few years but the Highland League would, slowly, find it's geographic centre getting dragged down south over time to the extent that travel time in the Highland League would be equal to, or even less, than the Lowland League. If/when the WRJFA clubs come to the Lowland League then travel times for Tayside clubs would be even worse as east coast teams drop out for some of the Juniors like Auchinleck, Beith, etc.

That might not be much consolation for the first couple of Tayside clubs to get promoted facing a bus journey at half six in the morning to Brora to be fair but, looking long term, it's not going to be that much of an issue.

You have missed out a number of clubs (intentionally ?), for example:  Inverness City, Spey Valley United, Aberdeen University (and others) from the Junior First Division West), plus Halkirk United from the North Caledonian League.

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14 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

Thought most of your posts were pretty sensible, but now you've joined the rest and slagging off the Juniors, nobody set themselves aloof , the West Teams didn't think the SOS was a viable entry to the pyramid, that was their decision rightly or wrongly , you are now quite happy to accept teams from the Junior leagues so all is well with those teams, again the Big Cup comes up , the number of Junior teams that have taken part are few. Be assured some clubs are not sitting back thinking they are better, but your generalisation does you no favours.

No offence but you green dotted the vile bile that got Isa banned, any point you make is overwritten by the fact you are clearly not a nice person.

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I really think this will pan out with clubs that want to be part of the pyramid in the East can either join at tier 6 this season or wait till next season to join the East Of Scotland Div 2 at tier 7. Clubs in the West who are interested can make them self known to the SFA or people running the EOS or Lowland League and if the numbers are high enough a new West Of Scotland League will be formed to complete the pyramid.

The SJFA will remain with the clubs that want to remain Junior, it’s a win win all round. Scottish Football gets a balanced pyramid (once the Tayside and North is sorted) covering all areas and the SJFA remain intact.

The PWG meeting didn’t go well as stated on here previously as to TJs promise to his clubs that all Junior clubs will join the pyramid next season at tier 6, it was voted unanimously out. It was never going to happen especially in the East. The SFA have a proven working pyramid in the East with more promotion places to the LL kicking in from next season its in good working order. It looks as though the SJFA want their clubs in the big Scottish Cup and they have no interest in the Pyramid or  Licencing, theres a real possibilty the Scottish Cup places may be taken away in the future.

Times are changing and for the better I think with clubs having a choice, choose the pyramid with a chance of being SFA Licenced, No glass ceiling, Fixture lists, u20 League, Scottish Cup entry, Games under lights, No end of season fixture chaos etc. or remain as you are better together as part of the SJFA. The players also have a choice who they play for too, in the East they have a choice of the LL, EOS or Junior, on the points noted above I know what looks more appealing.

Hats off to Dalkeith, Bonnyrigg, Hill Of Beath, Camelon, Musselburgh, Tranent, Haddington, Blackburn, Crossgates, Edinburgh Utd, Easthouses and Dunipace for having the foresight to see a brighter future for their football clubs and for taking their future into their own hands. If clubs do want to be part of the pyramid then the negative outcome of the PWG meeting for the SJFA will more than likely lead to more enquiring to join the pyramid before the EOS AGM in 3 weeks.

Edited by kefc
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4 minutes ago, kefc said:

I really think this will pan out with clubs that want to be part of the pyramid in the East can either join at tier 6 this season or wait till next season to join the East Of Scotland Div 2 at tier 7. Clubs in the West who are interested can make them self known to the SFA or people running the EOS or Lowland League and if the numbers are high enough a new West Of Scotland League will be formed to complete the pyramid.

The SJFA will remain with the clubs that want to remain Junior, it’s a win win all round. Scottish Football gets a balanced pyramid (once the Tayside and North is sorted) covering all areas and the SJFA remain intact.

The PWG meeting didn’t go well at all as far as I know as to TJs promise to his clubs that all Junior clubs will join the pyramid next season at tier 6, it was voted unanimously out. It was never going to happen especially in the East. The SFA have a proven working pyramid in the East with more promotion places to the LL kicking in from next season its in good working order. It looks as though the SJFA want their clubs in the big Scottish Cup and they have no interest in the Pyramid or  Licencing, theres a real possibilty the Scottish Cup places may be taken away in the future.

Times are changing and for the better I think with clubs having a choice, choose the pyramid with a chance of being SFA Licenced, No glass ceiling, Fixture lists, u20 League, Scottish Cup entry, Games under lights, No end of season fixture chaos etc. or remain as you are better together as part of the SJFA. The players also have a choice who they play for too, in the East they have a choice of the LL, EOS or Junior, on the points noted above I know what looks more appealing.

Hats off to Dalkeith, Bonnyrigg, Hill Of Beath, Camelon, Musselburgh, Tranent,  Haddington, Blackburn, Crossgates, Edinburgh Utd, Easthouses and Craigroyston for having the foresight to see a brighter future for their football clubs and for taking their future into their own hands. If clubs do want to be part of the pyramid then the negative outcome of the PWG meeting for the SJFA will more than likely lead to more enquiring to join the pyramid before the EOS AGM in 3 weeks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the proposal of Junior Clubs joining the pyramid at tier 6 not the SFA's?

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Just now, Isabel Goudie said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the proposal of Junior Clubs joining the pyramid at tier 6 not the SFA's?

As far as I believe it was an off the record discussion by an outgoing Chief Exec, I don’t think the SFA Board knew anything about it.

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4 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the proposal of Junior Clubs joining the pyramid at tier 6 not the SFA's?

 

3 minutes ago, kefc said:

As far as I believe it was an off the record discussion by an outgoing Chief Exec, I don’t think the SFA Board knew anything about it.

Plus no one disagrees that North and West region could still join at Tier 6 if they wanted to and put a serious proposal to PWG. The questions are about whether East region could join as a parallel league and the answer at the recent PWG appears to have been a firm No.

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26 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

But if the super leagues are at least on par with the standard of the lowland league .why could the juniors top league not be tear 6 playing off for entry to lowland league..east super, WEST super , EOS  and sosfl. 4 way play off ....WHY IS THIS IMPOSSIBLE TO GRASP .

Its not impossible to grasp, I just don't agree with it

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1 hour ago, Cyril said:

Its not impossible to grasp, I just don't agree with it

Im the same, associations should have got round the table well before know and agreed to a clear plan so clubs know their future, it should have been done after we left.  If the SJFA couldnt see that then they have failed imo. Its hard because its 2 different scenarios in the East and West, the West will remain intact (for now) while the East region you would have to say will be dominated by the LL and EOS as arguably the best divisions once players gravitate to play there.

It really is tough for the East region as now you have a clear pathway into the pyramid at tier 6 which if thats the way you want to go is great but clubs putting their trust in the SJFA and TJ out of loyalty are putting their clubs at risk by trusting someone else, my gut feeling and from what im hearing  wether its self preservation, snobbery to the pyramid and licencing but TJ is taking the stance of some of the top West clubs in that they dont want to be part of the pyramid or licencing and are paying it lip service.

Get all clubs on board amicably into the pyramid and alot doesnt change for most clubs, no self preservation and a move for the greater good of non league football, entry  prices will still be £6, local derbys will still be the norm, a Non League Scottish Cup (Junior) would be improved and the benefits already spoken about would also be a part of the setup. TJ and co can even run the improved  Scottish Junior (Non League) Cup if thats what he wants.

In terms of transparency TJ should email all his member clubs the goings on at the PWG meeting held last week, emails were sent to keep them and most put their trust in the SJFA, communication has no doubt been lacking through the years going back to when the LL was setup but it is now vital all clubs are kept up to speed, theres too much at stake here.

 

Edited by kefc
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57 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

Thought most of your posts were pretty sensible, but now you've joined the rest and slagging off the Juniors, nobody set themselves aloof , the West Teams didn't think the SOS was a viable entry to the pyramid, that was their decision rightly or wrongly , you are now quite happy to accept teams from the Junior leagues so all is well with those teams, again the Big Cup comes up , the number of Junior teams that have taken part are few. Be assured some clubs are not sitting back thinking they are better, but your generalisation does you no favours.

No.!!!! read my statement its not the teams that have set them selfs abouve but your regions.weather you like it or not access to the scottish cup and any monies gain have always been a factor.never said the s.o.s was the only route for the west clubs.again this needs to be sorted. !!! we were always told the juniors are not interested in the pyramid when its been proven not to be true. but your looking to come in on your terms instead of itegration playing throught the system just like the new clubs who have joined the e.o.s.i have posted about starting a w.o.s.league many times. did so earlier but until you try and do something anything to get it started there are still two avenue's of access. it just does not happen people make things happen.dont take this the wrong way. but 13 clubs made this whole debate happen by seeking change which they think will better their situation.

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50 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the proposal of Junior Clubs joining the pyramid at tier 6 not the SFA's?

You're wrong.

The SFA asked at the PWG meeting where this suggestion came from.

Nobody knew anything about it. 

 

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55 minutes ago, Jason King said:

No offence but you green dotted the vile bile that got Isa banned, any point you make is overwritten by the fact you are clearly not a nice person.

Again you think it ok to make remarks about me , knowing nothing about me , apart from the offensive remarks that were in the post , I agreed with the rest.  I have not made one remark about your character but you seem to think you can make remarks about mine. This is the last comment I will make to you and will not reply to anything you post toward me.

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1 hour ago, Jason King said:

No offence but you green dotted the vile bile that got Isa banned, any point you make is overwritten by the fact you are clearly not a nice person.

Not vile, or bile, sometimes folk don't like the truth or being found out. It is not endearing to bring about the downfall of an institution from within. If the cap fits!

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