Junior football, what is the future?

[GordonS]

There should be a rule on this thread that you get 10 posts for every match you actually attend - and every tenth post has to have something to do with the sport that's played on the pitch. Because it feels like the debate here is dominated by a small number of evangelists who are more interested in structures and in feeling superior than they are in football, and all other voices are denigrated and driven away.

It's Arthurlie 0 Hurlford 1 in case anyone's interested. Hurlford number 8 got booked for a pretty extravagant dive. Lovely evening to be at a game.

Edited May 14, 2018 by GordonS

[Ali_Wee_Jag]

If the information from [mention=14716]Burnie_man[/mention] is true then it looks like the status quo continues and the only way into the pyramid next season is via the EoS, I would expect another group of Juniors will be moving over for 2019/20. So the question is what would it take for Dunbar to leave the Juniors - if the four remaining Edinburgh and Midlothian clubs left, would you join them?

I’m only a supporter of Dunbar Utd so I can only give my own personal view. What would it take to persuade the committee to join the EoS league? I’ve no idea to be fair.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, GordonS said:

There should be a rule on this thread that you get 10 posts for every match you actually attend - and every tenth post has to have something to do with the sport that's played on the pitch. Because it feels like the debate hear is dominated by a small number of evangelists ego are more interested in structures and in feeling superior than they are in football, and all other voices are denigrated and driven away.

It's Arthurlie 0 Hurlford 1 in case anyone's interested. Hurlford number 8 got booked for a pretty extravagant dive. Lovely evening to be at a game.

Don't go full Isa Goudie on us mate 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, GordonS said:

There should be a rule on this thread that you get 10 posts for every match you actually attend - and every tenth post has to have something to do with the sport that's played on the pitch. Because it feels like the debate hear is dominated by a small number of evangelists ego are more interested in structures and in feeling superior than they are in football, and all other voices are denigrated and driven away.

It's Arthurlie 0 Hurlford 1 in case anyone's interested. Hurlford number 8 got booked for a pretty extravagant dive. Lovely evening to be at a game.

:-) so I can only have an view if I attend a game tonight..... That's new....... 

[Black & Red Socks]

There should be a rule on this thread that you get 10 posts for every match you actually attend - and every tenth post has to have something to do with the sport that's played on the pitch. Because it feels like the debate hear is dominated by a small number of evangelists ego are more interested in structures and in feeling superior than they are in football, and all other voices are denigrated and driven away. It's Arthurlie 0 Hurlford 1 in case anyone's interested. Hurlford number 8 got booked for a pretty extravagant dive. Lovely evening to be at a game.

 

You come across just as the SJFA and many supporters of some of its bigger clubs do in regard to joining the Pyramid - we’re late but here’s the rules we all should abide by now because we say so. What do you mean we can’t have it all our own way? Just look at our medals (or, in your case, look at how many games I say I’ve been to)!

 

No one needs to get into a billy big time pi**ing contest on the amount of games they attend so they, in fact, can feel superior (I’ve just left Creamery Park where a pretty dispirited Bathgate side are losing 4-1 to Glenrothes so I’m assuming I’m allowed to post even if we were to adopt your new rules?).

 

Look at the title of this thread and you know it isn’t about an actual game or games but about the future structure of the game so contribute or not about that, it’s your choice and you seem to keep wanting to do so (hopefully you’ve been to enough games to allow your post count to keep rising though).

 

If you want to discuss Arthurlie v Hurlford go right ahead and do so on the appropriate thread or start one entitled “Arthurlie v Hurlford”.

[drs]

28 minutes ago, heedthebaa said:

I stopped reading informative stuff around 76 pages ago, it’s better if you just read the bitter posters posts 

He's started his own salty salty thread

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Who are the luntatics though?...

The people who if your version of events is accurate would not accept the entry of the three junior superleagues at tier 6 in 2019/20 are as much a part of the problem as Tom Johnston who was no doubt well aware in advance that there was zero chance of that actually happening.

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, gogsy said:

They aren't stopping clubs joining in 19/20, just saying they wont come under SJFA control.

Because who gets to keep their blazer is what's most important for the lunatics that are in charge of Scottish football.

[Ginaro]

8 minutes ago, Ali_Wee_Jag said:

I’m only a supporter of Dunbar Utd so I can only give my own personal view. What would it take to persuade the committee to join the EoS league? I’ve no idea to be fair.

Ok, though presumably as a supporter you would rather have some local derbies than trips to Tayside?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

The people who if your version of events is accurate would not accept the entry of the three junior superleagues at tier 6 in 2019/20 are as much a part of the problem as Tom Johnston who was no doubt well aware in advance that there was zero chance of that actually happening.

Totally disagree with that assertion, why should the ERSJFA enter at tier 6 as a competitor league to the EoS? that just makes a mockery of the Pyramid frankly. Clubs are free to move and join at that level now, today. They can be in tier 6 a season earlier than 2019/20. No need to add in more blazers and more confusion.

The West will enter at that tier, via a WoSFL for 2019/20.  The North has hardly been mentioned at all, the SJFA's forgotten region.

The fact of the matter is, all the SJFA heirachy wanted was for their "big" clubs to get access to Licencing and the Scottish Cup whilst staying put. They weren't really interested in tier 6 or tier anything frankly regardless of survey results, that part was a ruse to place doubt in the mind of East clubs considering leaving.

The Pyramid does not need the SJFA, the SJFA's place is looking after it's member clubs who want to remain Junior. Meanwhile the lunatics get on with establishing a much needed WoSFL to finally plug a gaping hole.

 

[drs]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Because who gets to keep their blazer is what's most important for the lunatics that are in charge of Scottish football.

Well that and the East will already have a tier 6 league - you cant seriously expect clubs who have singularly failed to engage in the process over the last 5 years or so to suddenly jump the queue just because after a series of top level defections they have now decided the grass is greener.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

Totally disagree with that assertion, why should the ERSJFA enter at tier 6 as a competitor league to the EoS? ...

For the same reason that the Isthmian League was allowed to join the English pyramid when the Southern League was already there covering the same area geographically. It was the common sense solution to bring everybody on board.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

For the same reason that the Isthmian League was allowed to join the English pyramid when the Southern League was already there covering the same area geographically. It was the common sense solution to bring everybody on board.

That's England which has zero relevance, we're talking about the East of Scotland which in relative terms is a fairly small geographical area but you want to see two leagues competing against one another in the same system.  That's not logical and doubles the amount of blazers,  so when you say its about keeping blazers in position this is exactly what it means!

That's not even to touch upon the Tayside problem, plus, not everyone wants to be on board anyway. Only one West Lothian club out of 12 has chosen to make the move for next season.

Give clubs the option to move or stay put, the WoSFL fills the obvious gap and from 2019/20 there's real choice for everyone.

[ShrimpLok]

Would be interesting what might have happened had the SJFA sat down this time last year with the PWG and formally asked for all three Superleagues to be added at Tier 6, with some sort of compromise proposal for merging with the EOS in the East. 

If they’d proposed something like:

Top 6 from EOS with top 10 from East Superleague.

Bottom 6 East Superleague, 7-10 EOS, Top 6 East Premier

Bottom 10 East Premier, 11-13 EOS, 3 extra promotions from the North and South

Can’t see anyone having too many problems with that, you’d have a few teams a league too high or low but it would sort itself out within a year or two.

Too late for that now though. 

[daleboy1969]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

For the same reason that the Isthmian League was allowed to join the English pyramid when the Southern League was already there covering the same area geographically. It was the common sense solution to bring everybody on board.

What tear is the south of Scotland league ? 

You could have 10 tear 6 leagues .just more play offs ...like 2 eos leagues with a play off being muted as the new set up .

The next few months will see more tears and cheers on all sides .the joys of democracy . 

[heedthebaa]

9 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

 

You could have 10 tear 6 leagues .just more play offs 

You fucking wish

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Currently on the night shift and been thinking about whether the Tay bridge is a "fair" boundary for the HL/LL split as some on here think it's not. So, taking Lochee United as a random "Tayside" team, I thought I'd work it out.

Now I forgot Perth is south of the Tay bridge so there's a coupla clubs I made Highland when, technically, they should be Lowland. So whit?

Anyway if/when the HL gets its act together for feeder league I just made the assumption it would be made of the NCL, NRJ and ERJ North of the Tay. I "seeded" them based on league position this year (giving each of the three equal status) to give me 32 clubs for the feeder leagues with a North/South split (including "relegated" Strathspey Thistle and Fort William as they move to a 16 team league). For clubs in/around Aberdeen it was random whether they went North/South. I don't care if Hermes play a coupla hundred metres south of Hall Russell United, etc.

North: Strathspey Thistle, Fort William, Orkney, Invergordon, Golspie, Thurso, Alness, St Duthus, Inverness Athletic, Bunillidh, Dufftown, Maud, Colony Park, Dyce Juniors, Hermes, Ellon United

South: Banks o' Dee, Lochee United, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Penmure, Montrose Roselea, Jeanfield Swifts, Forfar West End, Downfield, Kirriemuir Thistle, Dundee North End, Luncarty, Dundee Violet, Kinnoull, Culter, Hall Russell United, Stonehaven

First of all I figured out the time taken to travel to an away game for Lochee United this year in the East Region and got an average of 56 minutes per match. Longest time travelling was 86 minutes to Penicuik.

In that South division Lochee's average travel time would be 35 minutes with a maximum of 76 minutes up to Aberdeen.

So, to recap, in a Highland League "South" division travel times for Tayside clubs would drop by nearly 50%. I dare say would drop even more for clubs a bit further North in Angus like Roselea and, let's face it, the majority of clubs wont really expecting (or aiming) for 5th tier anytime soon from either the North or East Juniors. Any 7th/8th/9th tier if the pyramid was to keep growing would almost certainly be further regionalised anyway. So if keeping local derbies and travel to a minimum is an issue for some Tayside clubs joining the pyramid it'll only be a minority of them.

But that aint the issue. The issue would be if a Tayside club made it to tier 5. So "relegating" either Vale of Leithen or Lossiemouth with Lochee taking their place the average travel time for the Highland League would be 2.5 hours with over 4.5 hours to get to Wick. "f**k that noise" I hear them saying in Downfield.

But, having said that, it's not THAT bad compared to the Lowland League where the average travel time is just shy of two hours with it just under three hours to Dalbeattie and still well shy of the time and effort Fort William spend every two weeks to be shafted and they manage on far less crowds and resources.

Coupled with that you could argue that, should a 6th tier be introduced under the Highland League, it's not like Lochee United (if they made it there) would be the only Tayside club to ever progress that far. Look at the absolute dross in the North division of the tier I created. Luncarty, Kirrie Thistle, Forfar W.E etc would also fancy their chances of beating that lot in a play off for promotion. It'd take a few years but the Highland League would, slowly, find it's geographic centre getting dragged down south over time to the extent that travel time in the Highland League would be equal to, or even less, than the Lowland League. If/when the WRJFA clubs come to the Lowland League then travel times for Tayside clubs would be even worse as east coast teams drop out for some of the Juniors like Auchinleck, Beith, etc.

That might not be much consolation for the first couple of Tayside clubs to get promoted facing a bus journey at half six in the morning to Brora to be fair but, looking long term, it's not going to be that much of an issue.

[LongTimeLurker]

10 hours ago, daleboy1969 said:

What tear is the south of Scotland league ? 

You could have 10 tear 6 leagues .just more play offs ...like 2 eos leagues with a play off being muted as the new set up .

The next few months will see more tears and cheers on all sides .the joys of democracy . 

SoS is tier 6. Having six leagues (the three junior superleagues, SoS, EoS and maybe the North Caley league) feeding into two at the first regionalised step would be nothing out of the ordinary, if you look at other country's pyramid systems around Europe. There are examples elsewhere that show that everything doesn't need to be neatly split on geography. In Holland, for example, the semi-pro and amateur leagues at the lower levels are split based on whether home games are played on Saturdays (Dutch Reformed leaning teams as Holland has a Calvinist bible belt that still keeps the Sabbath the way Scotland used to) or Sundays (RC and socialist leaning teams) as much as they are on geography. Will be interesting to see what happens with the SJFA's EGM and how the SFA will handle this issue publicly in the months ahead. 

[Cyril]

If Preston Athletic or Tynecastle suddenly decided they wanted to become junior clubs, they wouldnt be placed into the Super league they would be asked to join the bottom league and work their way up so why should it be different going the other way?

I am amazed that Linlithogw, Boness, Broxburn, Newtongrange, Penicuik and the likes haven't made the move but they must have their reasons and that has to be respected.

[Burnie_man]

6 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

North: Strathspey Thistle, Fort William, Orkney, Invergordon, Golspie, Thurso, Alness, St Duthus, Inverness Athletic, Bunillidh, Dufftown, Maud, Colony Park, Dyce Juniors, Hermes, Ellon United

 

Fort William to Inverness to Orkney to Aberdeen, seriously?   who pays for that?

Although, your workings show no difference Dundee to Aberden area as Dundee to Lothians.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Burnie_man