Junior football, what is the future?

[Hillonearth]

50 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

Aye ..but pages upon pages off what might be the EOS league format next season has HEE HAW to do with junior football .the forum seems to be a recruitment drive. Clubs want to leave for world domination , Fine . Give the clubs remaining peace and go quirky. We will watch your rise to fame on sky sports .

Or you could look at re-runs, like that time we were on Sky Sports last year

Thing is, it's less than a recruitment drive than a discussion of the fact at least a tenth of the current strength of the grade is disappearing in a few weeks, with maybe more than another tenth more than likely to leave the following season.

When do things reach critical mass and become worth talking about in your opinion?  You can only bury your head in the sand for so long.

[Marten]

36 minutes ago, virginton said:

Skalica or Šamorín to Bardejov in the Slovak second tier is a ten hour round trip;  Sered' to Košice or indeed anywhere in the east of the country  in the same division is an eight hour round trip.  The league's average attendance is less than 500 and clubs take in about 4 Euros per adult spectator.  In the Croatian second tier, a round trip from Varaždin to Šibeník is an eight hour round trip and you can add another two hours to get to Split - once again in a national league. 

The idea that the amount of travelling involved in Scottish professional football is unusually large or difficult for its relatively well-off clubs to sustain is complete and utter nonsense then. 

 

Or Alta v Fram Larvik in the regionalised Norwegian 3rd tier, a 25 hour drive . Clubs in that level are not more professional and better supported than in SPFL 2.

[drs]

1 hour ago, daleboy1969 said:

Aye ..but pages upon pages off what might be the EOS league format next season has HEE HAW to do with junior football .the forum seems to be a recruitment drive. Clubs want to leave for world domination , Fine . Give the clubs remaining peace and go quirky. We will watch your rise to fame on sky sports .

Again for the benefit of those who aren't looking at the bigger picture - this isn't about "world domination" this is about ground improvements, fixture lists, youth development, community involvement, opportunity to progress up the pyramid, Scottish Cup entry and of course club licencing all of which will help the clubs progress.

 

[cmontheloknow]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Emirates put in £80,000 a year I believe.

If the sum is correct, where did that money go? It certainly went nowhere near many of the cup's entrants as, as we know, the only club's getting a single penny or more are in the semis and beyond and the amount they got did not rise (from £8000 to £12000 for finalists) until after the Emirates sponsorship ended (iirc).

[Hillonearth]

6 hours ago, Glenconner said:

I know they said the West End had started moving East but somehow Lochburn Rd doesn't really cut it!!!

If you were an estate agent it would be smack bang in the west end - we're like 15 minutes walk from the top of Byres Rd! Even Maryhill's got a liberal mix of students, new Scots and transient workers these days.

We've got the whole north-west of Glasgow including the west end to ourselves in Junior terms though. Previously the club had never tried to tap into the wider area and just promoted itself in the local environs, but more recently we've been trying to make inroads into the areas we never did before. We've had some success in doing so, especially for bigger games, but there's still a long ways to go.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Hillonearth

[Le Tout P'ti FC]

I'm going to make the bold prediction that Dalkeith and Wallyford - separated by six miles, a river, two trunk roads, the estate land of the Buccleuch family, the village of Whitecraig and a county boundary - will never be joined into a mass conurbation.

[AlanCamelonfan]

10 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

No they are better teams. Just look at results between top junior clubs and EOS/Lowland League teams.  They consistently beat them. Just look where inferior East junior teams will finish up in the EOS at the end of next season.

Rangers were a new team, a bit like Inverkeithing HS,  and started at the bottom. The teams they fielded in SFL1 and 2 were not Championship quality. 

One off cup games. Auchinleck lost to Colts etc. You can' just jump through leagues only an idiot  would think that

[LongTimeLurker]

10 hours ago, surely not! said:

Imagine there’ll only be a few hundred there then.....

That might actually happen in the Boreham Wood end given they have a very small regular support, but overall it's not a sensible parallel with anything junior clubs are likely to be involved in any time soon. National League to League Two in an English context is comparable to last year's Dundee United vs Hamilton Accies playoff in a Scottish context in terms of the size of club involved.

[Auld Heid]

You also had the luxury of not owing your ground and the benefit of a lot of local authority help over the past few years that is not available to ground owning clubs but that aside your community club has made great strides forward...but one word of caution don't depend on the urban sprawl that is covering Midlothian at the moment you will be connected to Bonnyrigg by next year and east to Wallyford shortly ...Bonnyrigg now has a population of around 20.000 because of the house build ing that has taken place over the last 5 years and the rate of building is increasing.....That commuter population has not increased the gates at Bonnyrigg nor has it increased the footfall in the town shops......we have a successful team but it isn't reflected through the gates...the young professionals aren't interested in football  at our level...

Spot on.

The danger with the current trend of community clubs is they don't have an end product.

Linlithgow have a very successful community club but that doesn't automatically benefit the established local club.

Given the number of kids involved in the community club plus parents you have over 1000 potential supporters who are football orientated.

Our crowds are not increasing despite offering free entry to under 16s with an adult.

Increasing population doesn't equate to people buying into the local area/team. Even given involvement with playing.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

 

 

Spot on.

The danger with the current trend of community clubs is they don't have an end product.

Linlithgow have a very successful community club but that doesn't automatically benefit the established local club.

Given the number of kids involved in the community club plus parents you have over 1000 potential supporters who are football orientated.

Our crowds are not increasing despite offering free entry to under 16s with an adult.

Increasing population doesn't equate to people buying into the local area/team. Even given involvement with playing.


 

 

Being one of the very desirable commuter towns with a more than a successful local football team, your towns experience should be heeded by all who see the new set up as a possible valhallia in larger gates..Maybe it will have novelty value at the start of next season but the product has to be very..very good to sustain the interest.....and that's a big IF....in my opinion.

[Jason King]

Can I ask who is actually saying that the EoS clubs will have larger gates? From the clubs that are going I'm seeing reality, it appears to be those against the movement that continually bring up the attendance issue.

I doubt the great ash tree will tremble to its roots.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

 

 

What a fecking bawbag you are, monkeys wtf?

 

I will resist the temptation to respond with a similar vitriolic tone, I think it undignified. I have been using the metaphor of the organ grinder and the monkeys in a few posts now. However some seem to have difficulty with the comprehension of such representation. I admit that it perhaps might not be a great analogy as that would suggest that someone is in control, when in actual fact it would appear to be more like mob rule, as the defectors smell blood.  

For what it’s worth I have never been fervently opposed to a pyramid. In fact long before this thread and Kelty’s bid for silk and money I detailed proposals of a working pyramid. However I do think Junior Football is and has been a tremendous footballing grade and culture and should be afforded some respect. The Monkeys with the organ grinder have set about Junior Football in the most disparaging way. When someone thinks it’s smart to ridicule a club for celebrating 11 Scottish Cup wins it really does take the biscuit, and for that to be supported shows where the monkeys agenda is.

 

I ask the monkeys again, why are you on this forum?

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

 

 

 

Spot on.

The danger with the current trend of community clubs is they don't have an end product.

Linlithgow have a very successful community club but that doesn't automatically benefit the established local club.

Given the number of kids involved in the community club plus parents you have over 1000 potential supporters who are football orientated.

Our crowds are not increasing despite offering free entry to under 16s with an adult.

Increasing population doesn't equate to people buying into the local area/team. Even given involvement with playing.


 

 

 

That’s correct, an increase in a town/villages population doesn’t automatically lead to higher gates, you need to work at it (fixture lists help). Same if you’re part of a Community Club, although coaches and kids parents do turn out for one-off big games.  Mind you the “end product” is surely the kids progressing into the first team, we’ve had 3 of our U19’s playing regularly for us since February and our form has improved. The youth arm of the Community Club is not there to increase attendances as everyone is usually quite busy with their own teams at the weekend.

The fact is, a shed load more people in Scotland want to watch SPFL football than non-league football. Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen are selling season tickets in record numbers, and of course those other two in Glasgow have no difficulty in shifting tickets, the game at that level has never been healthier this side of the 1960’s, many games might be shite but people want to watch it. The new TV deal is about to be double the last one. Lower down Edinburgh City used to get 50 in the Lowland League, they now get 300+, similar with Annan, the price increase has not had an effect. Cove will get the same bounce if they beat Cowdenbeath. There are of course exceptions.

The non-league game therefore needs to try something different, and moving all semi-pro clubs into a structured pyramid which everyone understands is one of them with season long fixture lists and getting more clubs into the Scottish Cup raises the profile and gets media interest. Then get a truly all-inclusive non-league cup off the ground administered by the SFA, get the final at Hampden and maybe copy the FA where they have both the FA Trophy and FA Vase Finals on the same day at Wembley (both televised live on BT Sport).  Do likewise with the Scottish Amateur Cup kicking off at 12.00 and the “new Junior Cup” kicking off at 3.30, a big non-league day.  There’s a good chance it will get decent sponsorship and TV interest beyond BBC Alba.

Kick-off times need looked at to try and avoid TV clashes on a Saturday, once more clubs gain floodlights (it’ll be a slow process) then 3.00pm kick-offs can be standard throughout the year, and the odd Friday night game might work. Improve basic facilities (which comes with Licencing) so you don’t need to get your kid to pish against a brick wall, of if you’re female have to ask to get access to the changing rooms, that will help considerably as will a bit of hard standing and cover.

It's all sensible stuff, some of it easier, some of it hard, but if nobody tries to improve their own circumstances and come together to improve collectively as an all-encompassing non-league game, then the outlook is pretty bleak.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I will resist the temptation to respond with a similar vitriolic tone, I think it undignified. I have been using the metaphor of the organ grinder and the monkeys in a few posts now. However some seem to have difficulty with the comprehension of such representation. I admit that it perhaps might not be a great analogy as that would suggest that someone is in control, when in actual fact it would appear to be more like mob rule, as the defectors smell blood.  

For what it’s worth I have never been fervently opposed to a pyramid. In fact long before this thread and Kelty’s bid for silk and money I detailed proposals of a working pyramid. However I do think Junior Football is and has been a tremendous footballing grade and culture and should be afforded some respect. The Monkeys with the organ grinder have set about Junior Football in the most disparaging way. When someone thinks it’s smart to ridicule a club for celebrating 11 Scottish Cup wins it really does take the biscuit, and for that to be supported shows where the monkeys agenda is.

 

I ask the monkeys again, why are you on this forum?

‘Organ Grinder’ ‘Monkey’ ‘Defectors’
That you seem to think you hold some kind of moral high ground or position of superiority in this argument is nothing short of Trumpesque.

[Auld Heid]

Can I ask who is actually saying that the EoS clubs will have larger gates? From the clubs that are going I'm seeing reality, it appears to be those against the movement that continually bring up the attendance issue.
I doubt the great ash tree will tremble to its roots.

Football use to be a spectator sport and without crowds you lack atmosphere and a source of income.

My point was community clubs don't automatically enhance the final product or build a sense of loyalty to the top/final team within that set-up.

People equate moving to the EoS as improving football. That's a maybe but surely part of the overall improvement process has to be about getting people to buy into the team also?

We are only now reaching a stage where we should have been when the LL was originally formed. At least things are changing very slowly.

[Kilbowie Benches]

29 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

I will resist the temptation to respond with a similar vitriolic tone, I think it undignified. I have been using the metaphor of the organ grinder and the monkeys in a few posts now. However some seem to have difficulty with the comprehension of such representation. I admit that it perhaps might not be a great analogy as that would suggest that someone is in control, when in actual fact it would appear to be more like mob rule, as the defectors smell blood.  

For what it’s worth I have never been fervently opposed to a pyramid. In fact long before this thread and Kelty’s bid for silk and money I detailed proposals of a working pyramid. However I do think Junior Football is and has been a tremendous footballing grade and culture and should be afforded some respect. The Monkeys with the organ grinder have set about Junior Football in the most disparaging way. When someone thinks it’s smart to ridicule a club for celebrating 11 Scottish Cup wins it really does take the biscuit, and for that to be supported shows where the monkeys agenda is.

 

I ask the monkeys again, why are you on this forum?

You missed out “Junior” between Scottish and Cup.

[Burnie_man]

54 minutes ago, BENJI BOY said:

Being one of the very desirable commuter towns with a more than a successful local football team, your towns experience should be heeded by all who see the new set up as a possible valhallia in larger gates..Maybe it will have novelty value at the start of next season but the product has to be very..very good to sustain the interest.....and that's a big IF....in my opinion.

I'm not aware that any of the clubs moving from Junior to EoS next season expect any upward trend in attendances, from our perspective it could have a bit of a negative impact.  However, attendances aren't the reason for the move, and the thinking is long term they will return to current levels or improve once we have a settled pyramid with everyone on board.

[Jason King]

40 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

 

I ask the monkeys again, why are you on this forum?

You do understand how forums work?

Quick explanation - they are for the sharing of thoughts and view and for people to cogitate their opinions into the printed word and then people can disagree with aforementioned views. Anyone can sign in and contribute to the debate.

And this forum is STILL waiting for an answer from you regarding the benefits that clubs will achieve by staying Junior as opposed to moving to the senior game.

[Jason King]

 

29 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

Football use to be a spectator sport and without crowds you lack atmosphere and a source of income.

People equate moving to the EoS as improving football. That's a maybe but surely part of the overall improvement process has to be about getting people to buy into the team also?

 

 

Hamilton are in the Premier league, Livingston are 3 games away from joining them - neither of which I would consider to be well supported teams in relation to their locality. But they have used the options available to them at the top of the pyramid structure to improve overall as clubs.

As noted above, there is far more to moving to the EOS than crowds and income - West clubs have been criminally slow in the uptake of moving forward.

[Che Dail]

56 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

‘Organ Grinder’ ‘Monkey’ ‘Defectors’
That you seem to think you hold some kind of moral high ground or position of superiority in this argument is nothing short of Trumpesque.

See this monkey and the organ grinder - isn't that a scene from the Pink Panther?

Clouseau: "Do you have a lee-cense, for the minkey?"