Junior football, what is the future?

[8MileBU]

There is a working pyramid - backwards looking clubs have chosen not to join it, you resent those that have joined, The only laughing stock I can see round here is you and your tedious argument about Dalkeith.

Have your 1000th greenie! You’ve fucking earned it! 

Big fan of your work on this thread drs. Consistently since this threads inception you’ve got yer big pro-pyramid baws oot and got right in about they anti-pyramid vajingles like... 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

Scottish Premiership clubs usually talk about how they're competing against English League Two clubs nowadays financially. If you follow that comparison down the leagues it's kind of works out fairly well.

Scottish Championship is almost entirely full time at the lowest pay range that full time is likely to be acceptable. This matches up with the English National League being almost entirely full time as well these days.

Scottish League One might have the odd full time team in the league but it is definitely a clear minority. Fairly true of National League North & South leagues.

Scottish League Two part time = Tier 7 leagues part time.

When you look at some of the distances clubs have to travel in the English Regional leagues there are the same types of outliers that compare to what our National lower leagues have to do in terms of the extremes and working with the same resources. I get why people don't like the 10 team 4x a season leagues, but to say they're financially crippling or a detriment to crowds doesn't really hold up. Especially for those fans in the those leagues, they aren't really looking to change it.

[Khufu2]

18 minutes ago, drs said:

You'd only say that if you actually had no understanding of how the working pyramid actually works - if Linlithgow or Bo'ness refuse to join the working pyramid you'd have to be exceptionally blinkered or just a piss poor trolling alias to fail to actually why they would end up below the progressive clubs.

You are making an exceptionally mediocre starting position even worse with your failure to grasp how football works.

Still waiting on those Junior positives for staying, please hurry up before we all move to the senior leagues.

OK so next season junior clubs agree to join the pyramid. How do you create one that works? By placing teams like Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Penicuik two levels below Peebles Rovers and three levels below Whitehill Welfare.

LOL!!! You people don't have a clue. The east  section of the pyramid would be a laughing stock.  

Edited May 8, 2018 by Khufu2

[GordonS]

6 hours ago, The Moonster said:

We're discussing the supposed "problem" of clubs having to travel distances within the NATIONAL LEAGUES. Why the f**k would I bring into account the 200 other clubs in REGIONAL LEAGUES who don't have that issue?

Because there are many more part-time clubs that don't want nationwide travel than do.

That there are 20 clubs whose players and fans are happy with it is all lovely. It doesn't make them better, or right. 

6 hours ago, virginton said:

It is absolutely arrogant to...

It's just not, and all your greetin' about it doesn't change that. 

6 hours ago, virginton said:

The only thing preposterous here is that you think that a trophy that has failed to get a credible sponsor since time immemorial can be considered 'hlghly prestigious'.

Dunno about you, but I think "time immemorial" goes back further than 5 years. That's when one of the largest airlines in the world sponsored it. You know, the one with an annual revenue of $25 billion. Is that a credible enough sponsor for you?

The fact you didn't know that suggests you really don't know enough about Junior football to have opinions worth taking seriously.

FWIW they've also had Barr Construction (who built half the stands in Scotland), Scottish Citylink and obviously the long-lasting sponsorship from OVD Rum. But I'm sure you knew that, what with being so knowledgable about the Junior Cup.

6 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

It goes back to the age old question. Will you get better crowds for games against local rivals or against perhaps marginally better teams from further away.  An earlier post mentions 12 Dumbarton fans at Peterhead. How many more would you get if they were playing at Coatbridge or Cumbernauld?

I was also at Stranraer v Albion Rovers in the league a few months ago, and there were 5 or 6 away fans in a crowd of 281. Linlithgow Rose will get that many for a wee cup game tomorrow against lower league opposition.

6 hours ago, virginton said:

Why did you choose 'population' as your metric instead of more relevant ones such as 'attendances at matches'?  Scotland can sustain many more sides at a national level because far, far more Scots attend SPFL football than the domestic leagues of countries with a comparable population; it's very straightforward. 

Can you give examples of countries in which an entire division (other than the top tier) with an average attendance under 500 regularly involves up to 6-7 hour round trips?  If it's very straightforward then there must be plenty.

[Robert James]

45 minutes ago, tombrown said:

St bernards amateur football club enquired via a phone call.no other did though.

Did you miss the official statement from Musselburgh Windsor last month ? 

[GordonS]

This is only slightly relevant, but I thought it would interest some.

The CHEAPEST ticket for the National League play-off final on Saturday is £39 for an adult and £19.50 for under 16s, with at least £1 on top for print-at-home. 

Is that the kind of "progress" and "ambition" the zealots here are after?

https://wembley.ee.co.uk/tickets/national-league-promotion-final-3/

 

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

This is only slightly relevant, but I thought it would interest some.

The CHEAPEST ticket for the National League play-off final on Saturday is £39 for an adult and £19.50 for under 16s, with at least £1 on top for print-at-home. 

Is that the kind of "progress" and "ambition" the zealots here are after?

https://wembley.ee.co.uk/tickets/national-league-promotion-final-3/

To be fair the final is at Wembley. Our equivalent is at Cowdenbeath.

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Khufu2

[GordonS]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Scottish Premiership clubs usually talk about how they're competing against English League Two clubs nowadays financially. If you follow that comparison down the leagues it's kind of works out fairly well.

Scottish Championship is almost entirely full time at the lowest pay range that full time is likely to be acceptable. This matches up with the English National League being almost entirely full time as well these days.

Scottish League One might have the odd full time team in the league but it is definitely a clear minority. Fairly true of National League North & South leagues.

Scottish League Two part time = Tier 7 leagues part time.

When you look at some of the distances clubs have to travel in the English Regional leagues there are the same types of outliers that compare to what our National lower leagues have to do in terms of the extremes and working with the same resources. I get why people don't like the 10 team 4x a season leagues, but to say they're financially crippling or a detriment to crowds doesn't really hold up. Especially for those fans in the those leagues, they aren't really looking to change it.

That's all well thought out and I agree with the broad benchmarking, but it's moot as the English are further regionalising. Tier 7 is going up from 3 to 4 leagues, Tier 8 from 6 to 7, and tiers below are increasing too, specifically to reduce travel time. Clubs were declining to step up from Tier 9 after achieving promotion places because of the increased costs.

http://nonleague.pitchero.com/features/big-shake-non-league-football-confirmed/ 

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

This is only slightly relevant, but I thought it would interest some.

The CHEAPEST ticket for the National League play-off final on Saturday is £39 for an adult and £19.50 for under 16s, with at least £1 on top for print-at-home. 

Is that the kind of "progress" and "ambition" the zealots here are after?

https://wembley.ee.co.uk/tickets/national-league-promotion-final-3/

 

Scottish Cup Final is £30. Not sure what your point is, why are you mentioning English play-offs?  Threave v Kelty was £4, Cove v Cowdenbeath was £10, so still a wee bit to go.

[AlanCamelonfan]

10 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

OK so next season junior clubs agree to join the pyramid. How do you create one that works? By placing teams like Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Penicuik two levels below Peebles Rovers and three levels below Whitehill Welfare.

LOL!!! You people don't have a clue. The east  section of the pyramid would be a laughing stock.  

Not really because they are coming from outside so is only a perceived better team. It would  be laughable if these teams jumped into the top. No dinferent to rangers who came in at spfl 2

[Khufu2]

10 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Next season the English tier 7  divisions which you have on a par with SPFL2 will increase from 3 to 4 and tier 8 from 6 to 7 (and probably later to 8). Many inEngland also believe that travel is excessive at part-time level.

[GordonS]

4 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

To be fair the final is at Wembley. Our equivalent is at Cowdenbeath.

 

Actually I'd argue our equivalent is Livi/Dundee Utd v Partick Thistle/Ross County. I don't think fans of either club in the play-off final want it at Wenbley anyway, nor can I see why the fact it's at a ground with 90,000 seats is reason to charge ludicrous prices.

[GordonS]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

Next season the English tier 7  divisions which you have on a par with SPFL2 will increase from 3 to 4 and tier 8 from 6 to 7 (and probably later to 8). Many inEngland also believe that travel is excessive at part-time level.

Yup, as I pointed out to the fella: http://nonleague.pitchero.com/features/big-shake-non-league-football-confirmed/ 

[CJ Dalk]

2 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

mediocre

1. of only average quality; not very good.

1. "he is an enthusiastic if mediocre painter"

   synonyms:

   ordinary, common, commonplace, indifferent, average, middle-of-the-road, middling, medium, moderate, everyday, workaday, tolerable, passable, adequate, fair; More

 

Nobody at Dalkeith is too offended by this, but we are determined to improve the club beyond your 'not very good' description.

What you probably don't realise is that over the last 5-6 years our Community Club has steadily grown to 400+ playing members including around 50 girls in addition to 40 qualified coaches. We have a disabled football section, over 50s walking football, our over 35s won their league 2 years in a row, our Sunday Ams got to the Scottish Cup semi-final the season before last,  we have 2 adult Futsal teams and will have an Under 20s development side next season, and plans are in place for a Women's team. We are one of only two East Region Junior clubs to have an SFA accredited club Chaplain. 

Last year our own training facility was upgraded to 3G astro and by the end of the year we'll have access to a full size 3G training pitch.  Our SFA Club Licensing application is being processed now so we have been making improvements to the ground and are developing things accordingly.

Dalkeith is the 'county town', and Midlothian is the fastest growing Local Authority in Scotland with 4000 new houses to be built within 3 miles of the town centre over the next 10 years.  A new train station was opened  at Eskbank in 2015, and the main visitor attraction at Dalkeith Country Park has benefited from considerable investment by Buccleuch Estates.

The town is definitely on the up and it deserves a strong football club for the locals to follow.  You can only wait and see if Dalkeith Thistle's potential is realised, or if it is still 'mediocre' in 5 years time.

Edited May 8, 2018 by CJ Dalk

[GordonS]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Scottish Cup Final is £30. Not sure what your point is, why are you mentioning English play-offs?  Threave v Kelty was £4, Cove v Cowdenbeath was £10, so still a wee bit to go.

Because people are holding up English non-league clubs and systems as an example for us, when they really, really aren't.

[Khufu2]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

Not really because they are coming from outside so is only a perceived better team. It would  be laughable if these teams jumped into the top. No dinferent to rangers who came in at spfl 2

No they are better teams. Just look at results between top junior clubs and EOS/Lowland League teams.  They consistently beat them. Just look where inferior East junior teams will finish up in the EOS at the end of next season.

Rangers were a new team, a bit like Inverkeithing HS,  and started at the bottom. The teams they fielded in SFL1 and 2 were not Championship quality. 

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Khufu2 said:

Do you think Dundonald Bluebell will be placed in the top division rather than the lower one?

Possibly, depending on the basis of their "deferral", and that of Clydebank.

Also, discounting the possibility of late EoS applicants joining for 2018/19 , there should still be 3 or 4 vacancies in a 2 x 16 divisional set up for 2019/20. 

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Because people are holding up English non-league clubs and systems as an example for us, when they really, really aren't.

Well the English are around 30 years ahead of us as far as the Pyramid system is concerned, as is most of Europe. We're lagging well behind and it will take a decade or so for everything to pan out and settle down.  Having watched a lot of English Pyramid football over the years it seems a good set-up, although their ground requirements seem a little over zealous.

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, CJ Dalk said:

Nobody at Dalkeith is too offended by this, but we are determined to improve the club beyond your 'not very good' description.

What you probably don't realise is that over the last 5-6 years our Community Club has steadily grown to 400+ playing members including around 50 girls in addition to 40 qualified coaches. We have a disabled football section, over 50s walking football, our over 35s won their league 2 years in a row, our Sunday Ams got to the Scottish Cup semi-final the season before last,  we have 2 adult Futsal teams and will have an Under 20s development side next season, and plans are in place for a Women's team. We are one of only two East Region Junior clubs to have an SFA accredited club Chaplain. 

Last year our own training facility was upgraded to 3G astro and by the end of the year we'll have access to a full size 3G training pitch.  Our Club Licensing application is being processed now so we have been making improvements to the ground and are developing things accordingly.

Dalkeith is the 'county town', and Midlothian is the fastest growing Local Authority in Scotland with 4000 new houses to be built within 3 miles of the town centre over the next 10 years.  A new train station was opened  at Eskbank in 2015, and the main visitor attraction at Dalkeith Country Park has benefited from considerable investment by Buccleuch Estates.

The town is definitely on the up and it deserves a strong football club for the locals to follow.  You can only wait and see if Dalkeith Thistle's potential is realised, or if it is still 'mediocre' in 5 years time.

Great to hear what is being achieved, my only criticism is the chopping down of the trees at Kings Park which was a very mediocre decision

[Le Tout P'ti FC]

Great to hear what is being achieved, my only criticism is the chopping down of the trees at Kings Park which was a very mediocre decision [emoji38]

A wee birdie tells me there was some concern of diseased trees toppling into the school playground. Dalkeith children have mediocre skulls which can't withstand tonnes of timber.