Junior football, what is the future?

[AlanCamelonfan]

16 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

We are talking about people who are in full time jobs, spending 7 hours, probably in a minibus to fulfill an SPFL2 fixture in the middle of a Scottish winter.. Not a bunch of students flying to fixtures. The non-playing budgets of the US colleges will totally overshadow those of SPFL2,  most of whom exist on a shoe-string.

 

If you think the two are comparable you are totally mistaken.

I never spoke of us students. im talking about the Northern League that salford city and darlington played in. Darlington particualrly would have to travel to lancashire often.

[GordonS]

11 minutes ago, virginton said:

The number of people who have such a massive problem about travelling and want their club to stay in a cul-de-sac league as a result - arrogantly assuming, btw, that their club would get anywhere near the national level of the game - is dwindling as rapidly as the number of clubs in the Junior setup.

The game is moving on regardless and you're just going to have to deal with that. 

You're not telling me anything I don't know. But football has gone through a lot of changes in the past 25 years and mostly they've made it worse, so you'll have to excuse me if this clamour for "progress" doesn't have me skipping and clapping.

BTW, it's not arrogant to assume that a club that's been in the Scottish Cup for ten years and in that time has lost once to a HFL team and has never lost to a LL team, usually winning with plenty to spare, and who has been in five Junior Cup finals in recent years, might someday make it to L2. It's just knowing about football at that level and watching loads of it.

[GordonS]

14 minutes ago, HTG said:

That's fine Gordon but you and I support the same club and we have very different views on what we want for the club. If Linlithgow Rose were to secure a place in the national league structure I'd look at that as the biggest achievement in our history and I'd absolutely want that for us. It isn't perfect but it is what it is. 

I understand that older supporters will regard the escapades of 1965 as the biggest achievement in our history though and I completely understand that given how close we were to closing the doors just a few years earlier. 

There's no club whose fans all want the same thing. I don't socialise much with other Rose fans so I've no feel for the wider views, so I'll take the word of others for what that might be.

[AlanCamelonfan]

14 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

And next season there will be an extra division at both tiers 7 and 8  in England to reduce the footprint of the divisions. Of course there will always be outliers in leagues - Truro, KIngs Lynn, Workington come to mind in England, but SPFL2 , a 10-club division has Peterhead, Elgin, Annan, Berwick - nearly half the division is outliers! Why on earth would any club aspire to be in such a division? It makes absolutely no sense at all. 

Not everyone thats going want to make it to spfl league 2. For Camelon Lowland League is the ambition and to be the best we can be. When the time comes we might want to make that jump if we could. i dont know if we could who knows and if we did wed expect the tuesday night in elgin, where as the so called local juniors have us in dundee on a monday night

Edited May 8, 2018 by AlanCamelonfan

[Khufu2]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

I never spoke of us students. im talking about the Northern League that salford city and darlington played in. Darlington particualrly would have to travel to lancashire often.

Salford City  have never played in the Northern League. I suppose you mean the Northern Premier League

NPL North, tier 8 in England will have a smaller footprint next season, with an extra division added at tier 8 and a further one will be along soon - so tier 8 will soon be shifting from 6 to 8 divisions.  It's a recognition of the nonsense of travelling long distances for part timers to be playing in front of a few hundred.  Tier 7 is moving from 3 to 4 divisions too.

[parsforlife]

The argument about poor players having to travel large distances holds absolutely value. 

Players are payed to travel as part of their job of playing football, and they get pretty good value for it, they are willing to put up with a fair bit for it.  Look at the players in the peterhead squad as an example. They certainly don't dread a long journey, they could sign up for a local kick about in the central belt if they wanted, near to home. But they don't, they play for a club which involves the doomsday journey 20+ times a season. 

Of the things that put players off playing nationally as part-timers away journeys are very low on the list. A few hours on a bus 2-3 times a season, mostly on a saturday is the least of a players problems. getting to training twice a week is nearly certainly where the majority of the traveling is done.

[The Moonster]

18 minutes ago, GordonS said:

IIRC there are 20 part-time clubs in nationwide leagues. If you think there are only 40 clubs in Scotland, you're in the wrong forum. As for "sustain" it, I think we ought to be aiming higher.

Travel is a serious issue for players with jobs. Linlithgow Rose could only take 11 players to a Scottish Cup tie in Wick last season because it was midweek and rescheduled several times. They listed substitutes who weren't even there. In a year with a bad winter there can be a lot of midweek games and it's a problem for players. Having said that, I don't think they've ever been surveyed on what they want - that could be interesting.

As a fan, I'll travel anywhere for a Scottish Cup tie, but I'll generally not bother for a league game somewhere I've been to before if it's more than a hour or so away. I'm sure that's pretty typical. 

20 part time clubs of a total of 42 in the National leagues, travelling in which is what we are discussing here. That's a bawhair away from half of the clubs but if you must be pedantic then wire in.

Your individual experiences are of no relevance here. Senior part time clubs and their fans have been travelling the nation to play/watch football for decades on end and not once have we heard "match postponed as the away team couldn't afford the bus fare". 

If you're not bothering your arse for away games whilst your club is in the juniors, why the f**k does it matter where they would travel in the seniors?

[Burnie_man]

Of course, professional senior teams within the SPFL pyramid don't get any funding or sponsorship whatsoever. They just need to rattle buckets until they can cobble together enough cash to hire 11 rickshaws to carry the squad to the next game.
Fucking seriously guys, think about what you're arguing here.

Aren't Dumbarton in a bit of a financial stooshie at the moment with former Directors wanting their money back and no money to pay them? Also stadium naming rights agreed but sponsor not coughing up? Just something I was told.

I fall on the side of the fence that national football at tier 4 is insane, but that's not really the point of this thread and way off topic.

More important stuff happening on Thursday.

[Robert James]

6 hours ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

They want to stay out of the pyramid so that they can lord it over diddy teams.

If they had a shred of ambition they’d be for the pyramid and the chance to move up and test themselves at a higher level.

Staying where they are and collecting tin cups is what they’re all about.Clubs should always strive to play at the highest level possible.

If Talbot  wishes to remain outside the pyramid, that is their right. They probably won't be the only club which takes this stance, particularly some of the Ayrshire juniors. 

What Talbot needs to accept though, is that some other West clubs (eg Clydebank) feel differently and are in favour of joining the pyramid. Clydebank and others, including SoSL clubs, also have the right to make their own decision, now or in the future.  Respect on both sides of the West debate, is needed please

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

Aren't Dumbarton in a bit of a financial stooshie at the moment with former Directors wanting their money back and no money to pay them? Also stadium naming rights agreed but sponsor not coughing up? Just something I was told.

 

We are, but that's more down to mismanagement than the club being unsustainable. We've never failed to get ourselves to a game, no matter the distance or date.

Your Radio have gone down the tubes, more of them having no money to pay than refusing to cough up. We announced a new and improved stadium deal with a local company on Saturday too, the owners have fairly close ties to the club. I wouldn't be surprised if we hadn't lost out much there at all.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Robert James said:

If Talbot  wishes to remain outside the pyramid, that is their right. They probably won't be the only club which takes this stance, particularly some of the Ayrshire juniors. 

What Talbot needs to accept though, is that some other West clubs (eg Clydebank) feel differently and are in favour of joining the pyramid. Clydebank and others, including SoSL clubs, also have the right to make their own decision, now or in the future.  Respect on both sides of the West debate, is needed please

Think you would find that Talbot, as a club, show respect to everyone in football. Some of the derogatory stuff on here, aimed at Junior football and Talbot, from supporters of clubs who were happy to play at Junior level is actually astonishing! The level of contempt for a highly prestigious club tournament as the Junior Cup is honestly preposterous. The mocking nature, ironically from fans of clubs who couldn't win it, as inappropriate as it gets, and it would seem supported by the organ grinder who appears to recruit anti Junior monkeys with each passing day. Why are you on this forum?

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Think you would find that Talbot, as a club, show respect to everyone in football. Some of the derogatory stuff on here, aimed at Junior football and Talbot, from supporters of clubs who were happy to play at Junior level is actually astonishing! The level of contempt for a highly prestigious club tournament as the Junior Cup is honestly preposterous. The mocking nature, ironically from fans of clubs who couldn't win it, as inappropriate as it gets, and it would seem supported by the organ grinder who appears to recruit anti Junior monkeys with each passing day. Why are you on this forum?

Excuse my ignorance, but who is "the organ grinder" ?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Think you would find that Talbot, as a club, show respect to everyone in football. Some of the derogatory stuff on here, aimed at Junior football and Talbot, from supporters of clubs who were happy to play at Junior level is actually astonishing! The level of contempt for a highly prestigious club tournament as the Junior Cup is honestly preposterous. The mocking nature, ironically from fans of clubs who couldn't win it, as inappropriate as it gets, and it would seem supported by the organ grinder who appears to recruit anti Junior monkeys with each passing day. Why are you on this forum?

^^^ talks about being respectful but calls those who disagree animals type post.
Thats right up there with you making the case for the pyramid last week.

[GordonS]

30 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

20 part time clubs of a total of 42 in the National leagues, travelling in which is what we are discussing here. That's a bawhair away from half of the clubs but if you must be pedantic then wire in.

Your individual experiences are of no relevance here. Senior part time clubs and their fans have been travelling the nation to play/watch football for decades on end and not once have we heard "match postponed as the away team couldn't afford the bus fare". 

If you're not bothering your arse for away games whilst your club is in the juniors, why the f**k does it matter where they would travel in the seniors?

Eh, no. There are about 250 senior and junior clubs in Scotland, and well over half of them are semi pro in regional leagues.

The individual experiences of fans don't matter?  Aye, ok pal. With that attitude you should work for UEFA.

And you really need to read more carefully. I said I don't usually bother going IF it's more than an hour AND it's a ground I've been to before. Which means I go to more away games than most football fans.

But feel free to keep telling me why what I enjoy is wrong.

[GordonS]

21 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

We are, but that's more down to mismanagement than the club being unsustainable. We've never failed to get ourselves to a game, no matter the distance or date.

I was at Peterhead v Dumbarton in the cup recently. The crowd was 691 - little more than Pollok average - and there can't have been more than a dozen Dumbarton fans. Well done to those that travelled, of course. I know it's a cup tie, so it's different, but it's clear that not many Dumbarton fans fancied the journey.

[santheman]

Wait until HMRC start implementing the national .minimum wage on the semi pro game and players have to be paid for sitting on a bus for 3 hours.

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Think you would find that Talbot, as a club, show respect to everyone in football. Some of the derogatory stuff on here, aimed at Junior football and Talbot, from supporters of clubs who were happy to play at Junior level is actually astonishing! The level of contempt for a highly prestigious club tournament as the Junior Cup is honestly preposterous. The mocking nature, ironically from fans of clubs who couldn't win it, as inappropriate as it gets, and it would seem supported by the organ grinder who appears to recruit anti Junior monkeys with each passing day. Why are you on this forum?

Where's the respect to those clubs who are leaving the Juniors and those posters who see it as the way forward?  "anti-Junior monkeys"  really? anyone who is best served leaving this forum and in particular this thread it's you, you have shown time and again you have nothing to contribute to the debate. 

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

Eh, no. There are about 250 senior and junior clubs in Scotland, and well over half of them are semi pro in regional leagues.

The individual experiences of fans don't matter?  Aye, ok pal. With that attitude you should work for UEFA.

And you really need to read more carefully. I said I don't usually bother going IF it's more than an hour AND it's a ground I've been to before. Which means I go to more away games than most football fans.

But feel free to keep telling me why what I enjoy is wrong.

We're discussing the supposed "problem" of clubs having to travel distances within the NATIONAL LEAGUES. Why the f**k would I bring into account the 200 other clubs in REGIONAL LEAGUES who don't have that issue?

The evidence is there that clubs can and do travel every single week to different places to play games. So yes, you're whining of "I won't like that" holds no relevance as the evidence suggests enough people do.

You carry on enjoying it pal, just stop throwing up straw men arguments against those who are looking for change.

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

I was at Peterhead v Dumbarton in the cup recently. The crowd was 691 - little more than Pollok average - and there can't have been more than a dozen Dumbarton fans. Well done to those that travelled, of course. I know it's a cup tie, so it's different, but it's clear that not many Dumbarton fans fancied the journey.

You're all over the place here. I was talking about teams, not fans, being physically able to travel and play matches and you've given me an example of my team travelling 4-5 hours and playing a game midweek (you'll note no player was missing from the squad due to not being able to travel). Not only that, but in a game where there was virtually no away support the overall attendance still trumps a top Junior sides average. You're doing really well to show that travel and cost = less fans and money (hint: that was sarcasm, you're not really doing well at all).

[Vollyman]

I remember similar moaning when I was on the Dumbarton supporters bus last Wednesday evening travelling up to Arbroath. Oh wait, no I don't, because we're not a bunch of children that find it utterly ridiculous that a football team playing in a national competition might need to travel the length of the nation. The attendance was 892 as well.
What exactly is it about a few hours travelling to watch your team that you find mad?
 

Three years ago Armadale v Broughty Athletic in a play off on a Wednesday night for a place in East Region Junior Super League attracted just over 600. 892 attending a play off for the second tier of The SPFL reflects the state of Senior football in Scotland. I am sick and tired of people criticising junior football, the senior game at tiers 3 and 4 is a joke with most crowds attracting only hundreds.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

You're not telling me anything I don't know. But football has gone through a lot of changes in the past 25 years and mostly they've made it worse, so you'll have to excuse me if this clamour for "progress" doesn't have me skipping and clapping.

BTW, it's not arrogant to assume that a club that's been in the Scottish Cup for ten years and in that time has lost once to a HFL team and has never lost to a LL team, usually winning with plenty to spare, and who has been in five Junior Cup finals in recent years, might someday make it to L2. It's just knowing about football at that level and watching loads of it.

It is absolutely arrogant to cite the playing schedule of tier 4 as a reason for not entering a pyramid system in tier 6/7. It is also arrogant - and monumentally stupid - to assume that performances in one-off cup ties would reflect performance over a full league campaign. But if we did use your metric, we'd also have to consider the  fact that your chosen team got papped out of this year's Scottish Cup way back on September 2 while two Lowland  league, five Highland League and one East of Scotland league progressed to the 3rd Round in your not at all lamented absence anyway.

The valid time for chin-scratching philosophical debates on the merits of playing Elgin away will be if you're banging on the door of the national leagues and not before then.