Junior football, what is the future?

[Goalie Hamish]

12 minutes ago, peasy23 said:

As I pointed out when it was discussed at our AGM, if the proposal for the West and East regions to slot in at tier 6 alongside the EOS and SOS leagues comes to fruition, then almost nothing changes for the vast majority of Junior clubs. If your club then doesn't want to get a license then you don't have to worry about going into the Lowland League. It really is that simple.

As other posters have pointed out the EoS isnae going to accept Juniors at same level in the east so that's a problem right away its no going to be simple

[superbigal]

The juniors will slot in at tier 6 so tj is telling no porkies on that one.

He never stated what juniors or all juniors

Neither have the sfa

 

it will be tier 6 and below in the West and north, but tier 8 and below in the east.

 

You also can't fit all juniors in to tier 6 anyway.

Has to be more than 1 tier

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Illustrious]

3 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Awe FFS yer back take some of yer ain advice ya fucking muppet

I , like a few others on here , suffer from that disorder where speaking the truth pisses off keyboard warriors like yourself.

[gaz5]

Agree with everything else you said, but just to point out, I said I've never seen a LL team beat Linlithgow Rose, not that I'd never seen a LL game. I meant Rose have beaten every LL, EoS and SoS team they've faced in the cup, and all but one HL team, usually with plenty to spare.

I've been to two-thirds of the LL grounds and seen a few games. The standard has shot up in the past few years but if Linlithgow Rose were in it now I'd still expect them to be competitive right away. But that's not going to happen, obviously.

You can't read anything into one cup game, but you can read a lot into 10 years of cup games. 

 

I agree, Linlithgow would be competitive in the LL over the course of 30 games. They would compete with the top 6 clubs and be of similar standard over the course of a league season. I wouldn't expect them to just pass through it though.

 

What I would say is that (not you) there are many junior fans who think that the top Junior sides would skoosh the LL. I don't believe that would be the case. Some of them would be up there challenging, but teams like EK, Spartans, The Shire, BSC (this season), Cumbernauld, Stirling Uni (though a poor season this year) are not the mugs that many junior sides think them to be.

 

I agree you can't draw many conclusions regards one off cup games, but that is the only reference point you have at the moment (Kelty will hopefully provide a yardstick next season), but saying Linlithgow (regarded as one of the top East Juniors) have had plenty to spare in those games against LL teams cuts both ways. Talbot, I believe, have played 5 games against LL opposition and have only won through once? I saw the Cumbernauld game, and on that day Colts won with plenty to spare.

 

Now that point isn't to talk down Talbot or Linlithgow, they are both fantastic clubs with fantastic teams who are hugely successful on the park. Of course they would compete in the LL. The point I'm trying to make is that the LL, particularly at the top end contains teams equally as good a the top end of both junior superleagues.

 

Impression often given by junior fans is that the LL is full of teams not as good as the juniors and they just deserve to be at that level because the LL is rubbish. That's just not the case and doesnt help any discussion when that is often what comes across as a starting point.

 

[Burnie_man]

You didn't ask a question, you were trying to make the same point again.

I'm sure I asked that in view of you wanting a proper LL and Rose to be in it, do you want your club ever to win it given it carries the risk of SPFL if you win the play-off, something that you dont want?

[Jason King]

I wouldn't take cup games as a yardstick, after all Wigan beat Man City this season but we all know who would win out in a league campaign over 38 games. I currently cant see any Junior team walking through the LL, the likes of Kelty and Bonnyrigg would certainly challenge but I cant see them winning it by a massive margin straight away.

edit for clarification - East teams used as examples as they are moving, who knows when (if) current West teams will be in the LL

Edited May 1, 2018 by Jason King

[superbigal]

In the possible scenario that east juniors excluding Tayside become tier 8 and west juniors become tier 6.

I wonder how many would apply from current east to join west.

 

 

[Goalie Hamish]

2 minutes ago, superbigal said:

In the possible scenario that east juniors excluding Tayside become tier 8 and west juniors become tier 6.

I wonder how many would apply from current east to join west.

 

 

would that no mean they join at the bottom of the west pyramid

[santheman]

2 minutes ago, superbigal said:

In the possible scenario that east juniors excluding Tayside become tier 8 and west juniors become tier 6.

I wonder how many would apply from current east to join west.

 

 

Nothing stopping them from applying but I doubt many of the current district level teams would vote them in because of the travelling involved (unless the SJFA wielded the big stick and didn't give them the choice).

[tombrown]

Given that some teams in the west are asking for a senior west league to start.and when it does were will that leave your aspirations of the juniors slotting in at tear 6.as i stated before its time for change,its not what your clubs did in the past.its what they do for their future that counts now imo.

[Goalie Hamish]

26 minutes ago, Mr Illustrious said:

I , like a few others on here , suffer from that disorder where speaking the truth pisses off keyboard warriors like yourself.

Muppet with multiple ids calls someone a keyboard warrior

[Burnie_man]

Given that some teams in the west are asking for a senior west league to start.and when it does were will that leave your aspirations of the juniors slotting in at tear 6.as i stated before its time for change,its not what your clubs did in the past.its what they do for their future that counts now imo.

Is there any prospect of a WoSFL next season?

[Guest]

Yep, I agree the future becomes a more important debate, what the sjfa and junior clubs/fans require to remember is that no association, particularly those already positioned at tier 6 and who have bought into the pyramid process a while back, are going to disadvantage their association or clubs to the benefit of the sjfa because they now wish to play ball. That is the harsh reality I'm afraid, I'm not saying I think that is progressive in any way but many forget that anything that will be agreed won't simply be to the benefit of the sjfa or the top junior sides. 

The sjfa are going to have to start asking for the proverbial pony and hope they exit talks with the shiny new bike..... To assume that they will enter high due to on the field uality and success would be a grave error

[parkcircus]

No, think most teams are happy with the approach although if it doesn’t kick on next season and changes made this season to how the league is run then a few teams will be heading on elsewhere 

[Kernovian]

On 6/9/2017 at 15:14, Burnie_man said:

Just throwing this out there for discussion.

As expected we've seen Kelty jump ship, maybe one or two will follow in the next couple of seasons but I can’t see a trickle becoming a flood for various reasons, particularly in the West.

However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t a significant percentage of clubs out there who would like to see a proper pyramid structure in place which wholly involves Junior clubs, and for these clubs to work towards gaining an SFA Licence and work their way up that structure, participating in the Scottish Cup.

Currently, the SJFA don’t appear willing to engage in serious discussions with the SFA, or even open a debate internally with members on this issue.

So what do Junior clubs do next? what is the long-term future of Junior football?  Do nothing and hope that we only lose a handful of clubs and carry on unchanged, or begin an honest and open discussion between member clubs about how to integrate with the pyramid.

These are serious questions that now need asked but I doubt we’ll hear much about it at the upcoming AGM, it’ll be more head in the sand stuff and no leadership.

 

Excluding for the moment the Northern Region situation, for which solution ought to be pretty damn obvious...

What we have in the Southern Region, going into the 1918-19 season is fait accompli, a much strengthened EoSL & a still strongly regionalised SoSL. Where we wish to be is where the Western Juniors & rump Eastern Juniors are also included, where their topmost teams are at an equivalent level to the topmost teams of the EoSL & SoSL at very least for the 2019-2020 season.

I think that that's fair enough, but for 2019-2020, all remaining Juniors must transfer to the Seniors... or drop into amateur leagues. By then, the SoSL will likely be relatively unchanged, but the EoSL will have switched to a Premier + Division1 structure - neither really set-up to then add the huge influx of up to four levels of new clubs suddenly emanating out of the Juniors.

My suggested solution is as follows: -

The WRJFA forms the mooted WoSL, with two divisions, probably Premier + Division1. Those clubs South of and including Irvine are absorbed into the SoSL, whereupon all those clubs initially compete in two parallel conferences, divided geographically in order to determine the composition of Premier  & Secondary divisions in the following season. The 15/16 Eastmost WRJFA clubs will join the 15/16 Westmost ERJFA/EoSL clubs in a new 'Midland FL' of eventually two vertical divisions. Then, in the East, the rump ERJFA/EoSL clubs merge, also into a two-divisional setup.

Thus, the Southern Region would operate four parallel Leagues of tier6 &tier7 clubs, each division generally 16-strong. Each section's champions would compete in playoffs for two promotion places to the LL, probably alternating the fixtures between specific sections on a three yearly cycle.

Recruitment to the tier7 level would require some major flexibility in respect of fluidity in the sectional boundaries, sometimes requiring the 16-team divisions to split into smaller conferences which may need to 'borrow' geographically close clubs from adjoining sections on a temporary-ish basis. Also, some flexibility in tier6 boundaries will be required if tier6 promotees are not from the same sections as the tier5 relegatees.

That's my thoughts. Please feel free to critique &/or shoot down in flames!

 

[tombrown]

the reason the e.o.s are runnig two compatable leagues is to stay both leagues at level 6 until it reaches its desired total of 32 clubs. 16 per league.think there may be late applicants at their a.g.m this month.

[Jason King]

4 minutes ago, The_Judge said:

Agreed.

What is unappealing about them? If you want to play with the big boys then national leagues are the way ahead, unless you have other reasons than distance for finding them unappealing.

Even now its the likes of Peterhead and Elgin who have to do the travelling every other week. Clubs like Linlithgow or Pollok would have it easy compared to them, and anyway its ruddy Scotland. Its not like we are asking clubs to go from New York to Los Angeles every 14 days.

[kefc]

43 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Is there any prospect of a WoSFL next season?

I believe a few current Junior clubs in the West supported by the Lowland League, EOS, and SOS are in talks now about a creation of a West Of Scotland division for next year. 

General consensus is Junior Clubs wanting to stay Junior can, those wanting to be Licenced and part of the pyramid have a choice.

[Auld Heid]

1 hour ago, kefc said:

Your committee point blank turned down the chance to engage in any chat and a meeting with Kelty, Boness and Bonnyrigg. 2 of these clubs have now took their destiny into their own hands.

I think that could be clarified - as individuals chose not to engage.  These individuals have moved on, what influence they still exert is unknown.

[The_Judge]

5 minutes ago, Jason King said:

What is unappealing about them? If you want to play with the big boys then national leagues are the way ahead, unless you have other reasons than distance for finding them unappealing.

Playing teams four times a season (excluding cups) at double the current cost is unappealing to me.