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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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27 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

Much as most of what you state has some degree of merit, I can't help but think that your viewpoint is becoming somewhat coloured by your club's stance on the matter of sticking with the Juniors in the hope that "it'll be alright on the night" and your own consequent hope that their decision is proven in time to be correct. I'd be very surprised if it was. Like many on here, I can't quite see that the SFA, supported by those member clubs in the East of Scotland Football Association, can really tolerate a situation where clubs living cheek by jowl in the same geographic area will compete in two entirely separate leagues under the Lowland League. This is exactly the scenario that has to be done away with, not encouraged by simply allowing the SJFA and it's member clubs, for the sake of expediency, to have their cake and eat it.

As you say, emotion is best set aside, but logic and a quick glance at history suggests that the SJFA and it's regional organisations have been proven and proven again to be incapable of running an efficient league system in quite the same way that the other sub-organisations of the SFA have.

I completely understand how it looks but that's not the case at all. I'm as critical of the juniors as a whole as anyone else - moreso than most I suspect. The approach over the last 5 years has been dreadful in my opinion. The fact that there is continuing derision of clubs already in the pyramid is completely unhelpful. 

At the same time, I think there are folk on here who - consciously or otherwise - would rather see the junior teams not in the pyramid than have the SJFA playing a role. 

Whatever you or anyone else thinks of them, the SJFA has been part of the SFA structure for a very long time now. No question there are a myriad of things they can do better - communication and the way they consider other associations for a start. 

I'm working on the premise that the SJFA will deliver what it outlined on Tuesday night.

I think we need to remember that roughly 148 teams decided to follow the process attached to the survey. Roughly 12 didn't. The SFA are aware of and contributed to the lead up to that survey. 

Of course I'm concerned about my own team's future but my point is really that if we want a sensible outcome in the east then dialogue is the answer not "on your marks, get set, apply because those running the game are going to do hee haw to help you get your licence".  And I completely understand why some teams have done that. It is the consequence of a void. 

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22 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

I am Led to believe that a combined east/west superleague at tier 6 is also a potential proposal with regionalised leagues below.  Now personally under a pyramid structure which allows junior clubs to obtain licence and scrap the reinstatement rule and possibly the junior brand.  The formation of that league would be a real step forward. 

A league which still treads all over the EoSFL territory, and which was roundly rejected last time it was floated.  If the SJFA are seriously pursuing that then they are wasting everyone's time (IMO)

22 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

As said previously the sjfa should have been active a long time ago.  It’s up to them to save the grade and action is required urgently 

Why does the "Grade" need saved? another example of grade syndrome.  The "Grade" ceases to exist as soon as its clubs enter the Pyramid. The "Grade" has proven for years that it's not fit for purpose as far as administration and running the game is concerned, why do people want to carry that on into what is a new era?

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48 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

There’s no outline from sjfa at the moment was kinda hoping we would have got that on Tuesday.

However, assuming there would be 2 east leagues at tier 6 is also possibly off the mark.

I am Led to believe that a combined east/west superleague at tier 6 is also a potential proposal with regionalised leagues below.  Now personally under a pyramid structure which allows junior clubs to obtain licence and scrap the reinstatement rule and possibly the junior brand.  The formation of that league would be a real step forward. 

However, time is still of the essence and agreement by I would predict Ayrshire based west clubs potentially a stumbling block.  But we couldn’t argue what a potentially exciting league we would have.

As said previously the sjfa should have been active a long time ago.  It’s up to them to save the grade and action is required urgently 

Forfar to Ayrshire isnt feasible for a tier 6 league game.

Edited by Fife Journeyman
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9 minutes ago, HTG said:

I completely understand how it looks but that's not the case at all. I'm as critical of the juniors as a whole as anyone else - moreso than most I suspect. The approach over the last 5 years has been dreadful in my opinion. The fact that there is continuing derision of clubs already in the pyramid is completely unhelpful. 

At the same time, I think there are folk on here who - consciously or otherwise - would rather see the junior teams not in the pyramid than have the SJFA playing a role. 

Whatever you or anyone else thinks of them, the SJFA has been part of the SFA structure for a very long time now. No question there are a myriad of things they can do better - communication and the way they consider other associations for a start. 

I'm working on the premise that the SJFA will deliver what it outlined on Tuesday night.

I think we need to remember that roughly 148 teams decided to follow the process attached to the survey. Roughly 12 didn't. The SFA are aware of and contributed to the lead up to that survey. 

Of course I'm concerned about my own team's future but my point is really that if we want a sensible outcome in the east then dialogue is the answer not "on your marks, get set, apply because those running the game are going to do hee haw to help you get your licence".  And I completely understand why some teams have done that. It is the consequence of a void. 

Two separate pyramid feeder leagues covering the same  region, is not in the interests of any of the clubs in the East. The East already has its pyramid feeder league, and it is inconceivable that the SFA  would allow this duplication, as it is not in the interest of Scottish non-league football IMO, and of many others. Arguably it is laughable.

The situation in the West is very different. It should be a new initiative and a fresh start with a new league, new constitution, and a new management committee which obviously will be dominated by representatives from West junior clubs, perhaps with a couple of existing SoSL representatives. It would therefore preserve the interests of the West juniors, albeit under a different name ("juniors" has always caused confusion as is probably out-moded as it implies youth football) ie: the  West of Scotland Football League.

Regarding the North Region,  nominated representatives from the SFA, the HFL, the SJFA (North), and the NCL, should form a joint 'working party' (a phrase I normally dislike) to  look at all the options, in conjunction with the clubs themselves. Given the SFA's existing boundaries, the SJFA (East) should be included given the Tayside problem.

Regarding the Junior Cup, I would split it in 2 different competitions (as in England where there is both a non-league Trophy, and a Vase) . The higher level cup competition should include ALL non-league clubs at tiers 5 & 6. The lower level cup competition should be for clubs below this level, regionalised until the Quarter Final stage. 

This is a new beginning, and not a preservation order on the SJFA. in its existing format.  

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Afraid to disagree but rhe top 4 Leagues are not perfect! For the reason that although they are tight and play offs are brilliant they do not allow for open football with less pressure. The Old Firm want Colts, well play them in a top 16 against the weakest teams. That progresses Scottish football but tight Leagues don't. Probably the same in the bigger Leagues however I can also see the arguments for the smaller Leagues.
 


Nonsense.

If players are good enough they’re old enough. Having meaningless games at the end of the season so the youngsters can go and have a friendly kick about benefits nobody ffs. It’ll also make the leagues a lot less interesting and make crowds drop, which would lead to more money out of the game and so on.

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1 hour ago, bluebell1 said:

I am Led to believe that a combined east/west superleague at tier 6 is also a potential proposal with regionalised leagues below.  Now personally under a pyramid structure which allows junior clubs to obtain licence and scrap the reinstatement rule and possibly the junior brand.  The formation of that league would be a real step forward.

lol

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43 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

A league which still treads all over the EoSFL territory, and which was roundly rejected last time it was floated.  If the SJFA are seriously pursuing that then they are wasting everyone's time (IMO)

Why does the "Grade" need saved? another example of grade syndrome.  The "Grade" ceases to exist as soon as its clubs enter the Pyramid. The "Grade" has proven for years that it's not fit for purpose as far as administration and running the game is concerned, why do people want to carry that on into what is a new era?

Point 1

any alternative that is put forward by sjfa you dismiss.  You should really try and look at what’s better for football overall.  Too much politics from everyone is clouding the overall jusdgement for me.

Personally if we’re talking about football standards and improving the product a super duper league would do just that. The clubs will decide, nothing at this point is time wasting.  Time wasting has been done constantly over the last number of years by blatant non engagement and activity.

point 2

i am not hung up about the grade to be honest however the eosl sjfa etc seem to all want there own identity within the structure.  a true amalgamation under the sfa is probably my preferred option if that means in the long run a body to replace the eosl and sjfa etc then so be it.  My original point was around the Sjfa response up until possibly now has been very poor and they have contributed heavily to the current fiasco which is killing there grade.  For me they still have time to rectify what they have failed to engage in previously but the clock is ticking 

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12 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

On current standings Forfar wouldn’t be in the league

they may possibly well be and even if relegated could come up to the super duper league next season,

you cant have clubs from Tayside travelliing to South Ayrshire for a tier 6 league game.

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5 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

Point 1

any alternative that is put forward by sjfa you dismiss.  You should really try and look at what’s better for football overall.  Too much politics from everyone is clouding the overall jusdgement for me.

I've been looking at the bigger picture for the last 6 years, and debating alternatives on this thread for the last 10 months.  I know what I believe is better for football in this country but it doesn't include the SJFA.  That's my personal opinion nothing to do with politics.  A combined West/East Superleague was floated several years back as a rival to the LL but was correctly booted into touch by the clubs.  As someone else said, having Lochee or Forfar WE or Carnoustie travel to Ayrshire for league games is ludicrous at tier 6.

5 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

i am not hung up about the grade to be honest however the eosl sjfa etc seem to all want there own identity within the structure.  a true amalgamation under the sfa is probably my preferred option if that means in the long run a body to replace the eosl and sjfa etc then so be it.  My original point was around the Sjfa response up until possibly now has been very poor and they have contributed heavily to the current fiasco which is killing there grade.  For me they still have time to rectify what they have failed to engage in previously but the clock is ticking 

You admit the SJFA upto this point have been very poor in dealings with the Pyramid leading to this "fiasco", and from what others have said they continued to be critical at Tuesdays meeting of SFA Licencing and the EoS, do you believe they are the right people to negotiate entry to a structure that they clearly dislike, on your behalf?  If the rumours are true and your club have an application in with the EoS, I know what I'd be doing.

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2 hours ago, Fife Journeyman said:

Forfar to Ayrshire isnt feasible for a tier 6 league game.

These folk havent a clue what a pyramid is all about.

The Scottish Football League voted itself out of existence in 2013 after 123 years for the greater good of the game. The SJFA could take a wee hint.

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Think one of the things that the SJFA have right is the region breakup  of Scotland (EAST/WEST/NORTH), with some tinkering at the edges (Angus going North)

I believe the LL mudded the water and gave overdue prominence to the HFL. The level below SPFL2 should have been triangular;

 

NORTH - HFL,     with a NORTH West (Highland/Moray) and NORTH East (Aberdeen City&Shire /Angus) further regionalised below linking in the Juniors.

 

EAST - EFL,     with EAST North (Tayside/Fife) and EAST South (Lothian/Borders) further regionalised below linking in the Juniors                                                                                                                                    (EFL would be eastern LL clubs and EoS clubs initially)

 

WEST - WFL,  with WEST South (D&G - SoSL), WEST Coast (Ayrshire/Inverclyde/Renfrew) West Central (Glasgow/Lanarkshire) further regionalised below linking in the juniors                              (WFL would be Western LL clubs and SoS/Junior that meet criteria initially)

 

The SJFA missed the boat when the LL was started, and their lack of foresight, aligned with the SFA obsession of having only two regions below national as HFL/LL below SPFL2,                                   displayed a lack of foresight in failing to see the gaps in coverage and the disparity of numbers of clubs between north and south have all come together to create this mess.

 

For the number of clubs and the breakdown geography of Scotland three works so much better than two, and the SFA/SJFA would see that if they spent some more time away  from Hampden and Glasgow.

Finally clubs may have to accept it will take 2 or 3 years of promotion and relegation to get where you believe you 'rightfully' belong, never going to happen though, and sadly I predict squabbling/division/recrimination and stupidity for the next few years.

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I think most people would agree that the current Highland / Lowland division is inequitable, but at the time, there was a roughly 50:50 split of licenced (or nearly licenced) teams in their geographical areas. It would make sense for there to be a West feeder at Level 5 - I do think it will eventually come. You could actually argue for four regional divisions: a Central feeder, for example, which would produce a more even split of teams in population terms.

Pragmatically, we have the two division for the foreseeable future and any leagues at Level 6 and below will have to feed into this. Logically, the North, East and West splits make most sense. Once this is established, it wouldn't take much for a Western League to be established on a par with Lowland and Highland.

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6 hours ago, Fife Journeyman said:

they may possibly well be and even if relegated could come up to the super duper league next season,

you cant have clubs from Tayside travelliing to South Ayrshire for a tier 6 league game.

How many teams are confirmed to be leaving the super league.that you think forfar could be in the top six.even if relegated.

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9 minutes ago, lithgierose said:

How many teams are confirmed to be leaving the super league.that you think forfar could be in the top six.even if relegated.

No club are confirmed as leaving. 15 clubs have applied, by my reckoning 4 are Super league clubs, there will be a process that the EoS will go through with the applicants and ultimately a vote will probably be taken by either the board and/or member clubs to confirm membership. This still IMO does not confirm that the applicants will join the EoS for the forthcoming season. Clubs like Haddington Athletic and Tranent for example put the application in at the last moment, probably for the reason that if the boat was leaving the dock then they would have a chance to jump on board and not miss it.

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29 minutes ago, Only an observer said:

No club are confirmed as leaving. 15 clubs have applied, by my reckoning 4 are Super league clubs, there will be a process that the EoS will go through with the applicants and ultimately a vote will probably be taken by either the board and/or member clubs to confirm membership. This still IMO does not confirm that the applicants will join the EoS for the forthcoming season. Clubs like Haddington Athletic and Tranent for example put the application in at the last moment, probably for the reason that if the boat was leaving the dock then they would have a chance to jump on board and not miss it.

Have the 15 teams been named.....someone was asking that type of question earlier.....can you help ?

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1 hour ago, lithgierose said:

How many teams are confirmed to be leaving the super league.that you think forfar could be in the top six.even if relegated.

There are four definites and I still think a wildcard entry will come out after tonight’s meeting. Get your flip flops dusted off for trips to Dunbar, Tayport and St Andrews next season. Get all your cold weather gear ready for Fauldhouse. No relegation this season means we will be doing more miles next season than ever. 

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10 minutes ago, BENJI BOY said:

Have the 15 teams been named.....someone was asking that type of question earlier.....can you help ?

The 15 clubs have not been named as yet but my thought process and keeping my ear to the ground as they say here is my uneducated guess.....in no particular order.....Dalkeith, Camelon,Tranent, Musselburgh,Edinburgh,Blackburn,Bathgate,Bonnyrigg,Dundonald,Dunipace, Easthouses MW, Hill o' Beath and Inverkething H Swifts......One from the following two , AM soccer or St Bernards 

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16 minutes ago, PatP said:

There are four definites and I still think a wildcard entry will come out after tonight’s meeting. Get your flip flops dusted off for trips to Dunbar, Tayport and St Andrews next season. Get all your cold weather gear ready for Fauldhouse. No relegation this season means we will be doing more miles next season than ever. 

And to some.LR applying to eos would kill the club.could not make it up.

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