Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, Robert James said:

There are some precedents for late applications, although i have no knowledge of the SJFA rules about the time period for resignations  (AGM date ?)

I guess since you are resigning, who cares!

 

13 minutes ago, Robert James said:

(3) even if consideration of late applicants is rejected for 2018/19, the EoS will need to fill the remaining (4 or 5 ?) vacancies for 2019/20. The worst case scenario then,  would be that (by negotiation)  junior Super League applicants would have a very strong case to be allocated automatically into the EoS 2nd division. even if a 3rd division is created at that stage. Most people would agree that it would be ridiculous to 'force' the top junior clubs into an EoS 3rd division.

I'm not sure why the EoS would need to fill "vacancies" for 2019/2020?  and on the latter point, why would it be "ridiculous" to invite new applicants to join at the bottom level? That's what happens in any league.

 

 

[Robert James]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

......and to hell with whoever is playing in the EoS?

The situation for next season is that the existing EoS clubs could, quite rightly, say that the existing 13 clubs plus a few of the newcomers form the top division next season and everyone else form the second.  I personally would have no problem with that.  New members don't have any right to go into a league and start shouting the odds over where they should be placed based on "we're better than you".

Neither should this be the case if and when Linlithgow and Bo'ness (and others) decide to move.  They knew the potential landscape for 2019/20 if they didn't move this season. I refer you back to my post on short-termism.

I rather suspect the SFA wont interfere with how the EoSFL deal with new applicants or structure their league, they haven't this season and I doubt they will in following seasons.

 

IMO the EoSL won't take this stance, as it is looking at options to start with 'a level playing field' for next season . Its EGM later this month, will I understand, consider these options.

Also IMO,  you are right that the SFA will not  interfere with decisions which fall within the jurisdiction of the EoSL

[Dipple burn]

10 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

England is different ball game though, a lot of the clubs outwith the leagues have such massive potential due to the population of England. Some money pumped into Salford and look at the change in their attendances. Who was the non league club that went far in the cup last season? Their support was ridiculous, higher than the likes of Aberdeen I’m sure.

Like I’ve already said too, I can’t see any league club ‘struggling’, the more decent clubs in tiers below League 2 the merrier for league clubs. It would help, league clubs dropping out into a league that has no money and clubs with little to no support is more of a struggle.

 

Lincoln City M8 my favourite English club.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Robert James said:

IMO the EoSL won't take this stance, as it is looking at options to start with 'a level playing field' for next season . Its EGM later this month, will I understand, consider these options.

Also IMO,  you are right that the SFA will not  interfere with decisions which fall within the jurisdiction of the EoSL

Yeah, they are looking at options for next season (and going with a straight Div 1 and Div 2 is a possible outcome), for the season after would you expect them to have a second successive "transition" season? I have my doubts but you never know.

[San Starko Rover]

I agree with your views.  However, I don't understand  why Bo'ness seems to be 'glued' onto Linlithgow, rather than making its own decision about the pyramid.

 

Being positive though, all may not be' lost' for 2018/19, for the following reasons :

(1) the EoS would apparently like to have 2 divisions next season, and (ideally) have 2  x 16 (32 clubs) . According to numerous posts on the "New Clubs for the EoS", and on here, it appears likely that the number of Applicants received by 1st April, 2018, was insufficient to reach this level for next season

(2) the outcome of the SJFA's impending EGM, may not be satisfactory for Bo'ness, LR, and some others, and (whilst unlikely) it is not inconceivable that the EoS may consider late applicants to fill, the shortfall of 4 or 5 clubs, with a view to bringing up the numbers to 32 for next season. There are some precedents for late applications, although i have no knowledge of the SJFA rules about the time period for resignations  (AGM date ?)

(3) even if consideration of late applicants is rejected for 2018/19, the EoS will need to fill the remaining (4 or 5 ?) vacancies for 2019/20. The worst case scenario then,  would be that (by negotiation)  junior Super League applicants would have a very strong case to be allocated automatically into the EoS 2nd division. even if a 3rd division is created at that stage. Most people would agree that it would be ridiculous to 'force' the top junior clubs into an EoS 3rd division.

(4) on a previous post, I suggested that a review of the the new EoS structure for 2018/19, should be carried out 12 months from now, to see how successful  it has been. Some surprising outcomes may emerge ?

 

Surely if clubs miss the cut off for the EoS this year and change their mind for the following season if the EoS is at 32 team (Prem and Div1) rather than starting a Division 2 they could run 2 leagues feeding into their premier division (it is a pyramid after all) so have one league at tier 6 and two at tier 7 split geographically, this would suit smaller teams as less traveling and also suit larger late arrivals as they’re starting at tier 7 instead of 8. The EoS could then if there was demand accommodate 48 teams before they’d have to open tier 8. Could even have 4 down to speed up teams finding their level with 2 promoted from each of the tier 7 leagues.

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

I guess since you are resigning, who cares!

 

I'm not sure why the EoS would need to fill "vacancies" for 2019/2020?  and on the latter point, why would it be "ridiculous" to invite new applicants to join at the bottom level? That's what happens in any league.

 

 

A simple arithmetic calculation !!!.  If say, the EoS wants a league of  2 divisions of 16 clubs, and it only have 25-27 clubs in situ, then you try to fill the vacancies.  If you run any business, and have some job vacancies,which you want to fill, you will do so. 

"Ridiculous" ?  Do you advocate forcing top junior league clubs into a 3rd division, when you have a small number of vacancies in the 2nd division ?  

[Robert James]

8 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

Surely if clubs miss the cut off for the EoS this year and change their mind for the following season if the EoS is at 32 team (Prem and Div1) rather than starting a Division 2 they could run 2 leagues feeding into their premier division (it is a pyramid after all) so have one league at tier 6 and two at tier 7 split geographically, this would suit smaller teams as less traveling and also suit larger late arrivals as they’re starting at tier 7 instead of 8. The EoS could then if there was demand accommodate 48 teams before they’d have to open tier 8. Could even have 4 down to speed up teams finding their level with 2 promoted from each of the tier 7 leagues.

A possible scenario for 2019/20, although probably unlikely unless the Tayside junior clubs apply to join the EoS .

But you didn't comment on point (2) of my post about  "late applications" for 2018/19. Any views ?

[San Starko Rover]

A possible scenario for 2019/20, although probably unlikely unless the Tayside junior clubs apply to join the EoS .
But you didn't comment on point (2) of my post about  "late applications" for 2018/19. Any views ?

If there’s spaces available the EoS would be wrong to refuse teams in my opinion. Seem to recall a Kelty fan said their application was accepted after the cut off, although I could be wrong on that.

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, Robert James said:

A simple arithmetic calculation !!!.  If say, the EoS wants a league of  2 divisions of 16 clubs, and it only have 25-27 clubs in situ, then you try to fill the vacancies.  If you run any business, and have some job vacancies,which you want to fill, you will do so. 

They can run with 2 leagues of 14, or 15 or whatever to suit the numbers they have.  I'm not aware they have ever said they have a specific number of vacancies.

 

13 minutes ago, Robert James said:

"Ridiculous" ?  Do you advocate forcing top junior league clubs into a 3rd division, when you have a small number of vacancies in the 2nd division ?  

No. If there are vacancies in the second division then of course they are filled first, it goes without saying, and then you move on to another division, regardless of who the clubs are.  As someone pointed out earlier, AFC Wimbledon had to start in the bottom rung of the Pyramid down south (rightly so) and were taking 2,000 fans to clubs who averaged 50.  Then there is the Rangers situation. That's how it works.

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

If there’s spaces available the EoS would be wrong to refuse teams in my opinion. Seem to recall a Kelty fan said their application was accepted after the cut off, although I could be wrong on that.

 

Agreed

And BTW, I consider the stance taken LR and Bo'ness is disappointing and very risky. In the case of Linlithgow,  an SFA Member club,  the SFA may well withdraw the Scottish Cup entitlement for junior clubs who don't commit to the pyramid, once the situation in the West and North is sorted out . Girvan, Banks O'Dee, Golspie......and Glasgow Uni, need to realise this possibility.

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Robert James said:

But you didn't comment on point (2) of my post about  "late applications" for 2018/19. Any views ?

The EoS EGM is 26th April I believe, as reported in the Edinburgh Evening News.  I would guess that if any late applications were received between now and then, they would be considered without any guarantee of being accepted.

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

The EoS EGM is 26th April I believe, as reported in the Edinburgh Evening News.  I would guess that if any late applications were received between now and then, they would be considered without any guarantee of being accepted.

Agreed

Do you know if the SJFA has set its EGN/AGM dates ?

[San Starko Rover]

 There seems to be a lot of get the Juniors into as low a league as possible chat that will create havoc with Linlithgow and Bo'ness potentially 3 leagues below Kelty if some posters have their way as they didn't apply in time. Need some direction from SFA to get this resolved. I would like to see at least top 4 East Super League teams into East of Scotland league with 3/4 being relegated until the league is more settled with best quality possible. 

With the West Region hopefully have West League slotting below Lowland League with Glasgow Uni, Threave, Bonnyton only potential additions to top 16 Junior West teams but at least one of them may not fancy it if current top 16 West teams are bold and go for it due to either likely to finish bottom or travel issues.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know where you’re coming from but I think what your missing is at present this isn’t a merger between the East Junior and EoS neither Organisation is in discussion with the other. This is X numbers of Junior and Amateur teams have decided to apply for the EoS and if rumours are to be believed about a possible mini seeding round or two parallel leagues the EoS are actually being more accommodating than they really have to be.

 

Flip the scenario round and say 3 years ago Ayr United or Raith decided to go Junior for whatever reason would the SJFA be saying welcome, where would you like to start or would they be told you’re a new club to our pyramid the bottom league is over there. What would the reaction be if a new team joining the SJFA started anywhere but the bottom?

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Agreed

Do you know if the SJFA has set its EGN/AGM dates ?

The SJFA heirachy and the East Region clubs have a meeting on Tuesday to discuss the survey results.  Not sure about the West, less pressing need there.

The AGM will be in June as normal (second Saturday?), and I suspect the EGM will immediately precede it.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Sergeant Wilson]

27 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

They can run with 2 leagues of 14, or 15 or whatever to suit the numbers they have.  I'm not aware they have ever said they have a specific number of vacancies.

 

No. If there are vacancies in the second division then of course they are filled first, it goes without saying, and then you move on to another division, regardless of who the clubs are.  As someone pointed out earlier, AFC Wimbledon had to start in the bottom rung of the Pyramid down south (rightly so) and were taking 2,000 fans to clubs who averaged 50.  Then there is the Rangers situation. That's how it works.

In England there is consideration of where teams can be accommodated. It might not be at the bottom. Darlington got in at 1st Division in the NL. Probably not an issue here though.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

In England there is consideration of where teams can be accommodated. It might not be at the bottom. Darlington got in at 1st Division in the NL. Probably not an issue here though.

That must have changed then since AFCW joined, they had to go to the bottom rung (Combined Counties League) despite a request to enter one level higher. They only got promoted in their second season.

[Hillonearth]

19 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

I know where you’re coming from but I think what your missing is at present this isn’t a merger between the East Junior and EoS neither Organisation is in discussion with the other. This is X numbers of Junior and Amateur teams have decided to apply for the EoS and if rumours are to be believed about a possible mini seeding round or two parallel leagues the EoS are actually being more accommodating than they really have to be.

 

Flip the scenario round and say 3 years ago Ayr United or Raith decided to go Junior for whatever reason would the SJFA be saying welcome, where would you like to start or would they be told you’re a new club to our pyramid the bottom league is over there. What would the reaction be if a new team joining the SJFA started anywhere but the bottom?

The flipside to this of course is that by doing so the EoS are taking a sensible and pragmatic approach, with full recognition of the fact that at least some of the new clubs are far stronger than some of their existing members. They appear to be dealing with this with their eyes open rather than adopting a hidebound approach, which is encouraging.

And no, in the extremely unlikely hypothetical instance of a comparatively huge club like Ayr going Junior I actually don't think they'd be papped into the ADL to work their way up.

[Sergeant Wilson]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

That must have changed then since AFCW joined, they had to go to the bottom rung (Combined Counties League) despite a request to enter one level higher. They only got promoted in their second season.

Can't remember the timings, but Darlington were pissed off at being put in that low, even though there is an NL2 and feeder leagues below that. I've seen others (I'd need to look them up) where non league teams have gone bust and re entered a division or two down.

[San Starko Rover]

The flipside to this of course is that by doing so the EoS are taking a sensible and pragmatic approach, with full recognition of the fact that at least some of the new clubs are far stronger than some of their existing members. They appear to be dealing with this with their eyes open rather than adopting a hidebound approach, which is encouraging.
And no, in the extremely unlikely hypothetical instance of a comparatively huge club like Ayr going Junior I actually don't think they'd be papped into the ADL to work their way up.

Fair enough it’s an extreme example but the Bankies started at the bottom of the West leagues I assume? New team or not they’re bigger than many juniors in terms of fan base.

[Ardenvohr6]

Fair enough it’s an extreme example but the Bankies started at the bottom of the West leagues I assume? New team or not they’re bigger than many juniors in terms of fan base.

More than a new team, an entirely new club, so of course they would go to the bottom. They had no fan base until they opened their turnstiles for the first game. Are you suggesting a BSC Glasgow Juniors would go into the top division due to having a fan base of several hundred thousand in Glasgow?