Junior football, what is the future?

[Blackie Gold]

6 hours ago, fan of the juniors said:

Not commented on this thread as frankly it was going nowhere & starting to bore me but the news of the last day or so has gave it a shot in the arm .
Has anyone seen who voted for what yet ? Makes very interesting reading so it does . Looking at it Talbot , Cumnock & Glens could join their own wee breakaway league & just play each other for all & eternal . I’m sure they would get the 2 Irvine sides wishing to join them as well .

We did it in the 1930's when the north clubs in the Western League wouldn't let us join.

[newcastle broon]

2 hours ago, boulderdomb said:

Everyone talking about financial gain of playing in the Scottish Cup when moving to senior - surely the more junior clubs who move the less money the clubs will receive as the wealth will need to be spread more otherwise the SFA would go bust? Rounds 1 & 2 could see a financial hit if more and more clubs try to get on.

Even more preliminary  rounds would be brought in to account for the numbers. As someone stated before the money wouldn't/doesn't start till round 1 proper? 

I also fear a lot of teams might even struggle for existence. I sincerely hope I am wrong. 

 

[Blackie Gold]

10 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

IF a WoSFL was formed anybody any thoughts on what league  Girvan would play?

They used to be in the SoSFL, awright a few years ago now, but would surely fancy themselves in that league where if play offs potentially could be achieved season after season with an easier accessed route to the LL? 

Likewise Gretna and Dalbeattie should they ever get relegated from the LL  they would find it much easier to get back to the LL than most East/Central/West clubs? 

It's not just Fife and Tayside that might/might not see the benefits of a pyramid geography wise? 

As much as there are pros and cons somebody somewhere has a difficult job on their hands getting the right balance. 

We do know that the Junior forum has some highly motivated pyramidteers, so this shouldn't be a problem.

[Burnie_man]

If an WoSFL comes to fruition, then long term it surely must lead to the SoSFL integrating in some way, it’s never going to be a strong enough league to produce play-off winners when up against WoSFL and EoSFL.

If the LL goes to three relegation spots then all three feeders may get a spot each but is the SoSFL strong enough and do their clubs actually want it? Like the smaller clubs currently in the EoSFL who are in theory one promotion from the LL but are about the be inundated with stronger members, the SoSFL clubs may have to accept their future lies further down the Pyramid rather than having direct access to the LL.

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Even more preliminary  rounds would be brought in to account for the numbers. As someone stated before the money wouldn't/doesn't start till round 1 proper? 

I also fear a lot of teams might even struggle for existence. I sincerely hope I am wrong. 

 

Payments exist in all rounds, inc Preliminary.  I also don't think that short term the Scottish Cup is going to be inundated with new members.

[craigkillie]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

If an WoSFL comes to fruition, then long term it surely must lead to the SoSFL integrating in some way, it’s never going to be a strong enough league to produce play-off winners when up against WoSFL and EoSFL.

If the LL goes to three relegation spots then all three feeders may get a spot each but is the SoSFL strong enough and do their clubs actually want it? Like the smaller clubs currently in the EoSFL who are in theory one promotion from the LL but are about the be inundated with stronger members, the SoSFL clubs may have to accept their future lies further down the Pyramid rather than having direct access to the LL.

The new West League should incorporate the entire west of Scotland, and the South of Scotland League should come in somewhere below that.  As long as the current South of Scotland big hitters (Threave, Mids, St Cuthbert etc) have the chance to apply for places in the West League, I don't see any reason why they should be against that.  It will make almost no discernible difference to the rest of them, who mostly have no real ambition (or chance) of playing at a higher level anyway.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

What is the purpose of competitive professional sport, Goudie? Why did it start and why does it continue? In almost every avenue of professional sport, clubs and invididuals want to compete at the highest level possible - sometimes that means facing a challenge and y'know, even being beaten. The pinnacle of competitive football in Scotland is the SPFL Premiership. It's where the highest wages are paid, where the best players play, where the biggest crowds pay good money to attend and where the best stadia are found. It cascades downwards from there, until you get towards the bottom of the national leagues and then it's just a big murky mess... teams that should have been relegated out years ago, teams that have well and truly outgrown their pond beneath that but unwilling and unable to escape. Financially, Junior competitions are worthless, extreme latter stages of Junior Cup excepted. Back to my orginal point about competitive professional sport. Junior clubs deny themselves access to revenue that could help sustain them OR help them go to the next level. It's a grade that collectively wishes its clubs to not get ideas above their station and wishes ill on those who dare (the cheek of it!) to look elsewhere for a means of growing their business. Knowing one's place is not really what professional sport is about - to me it is about challenging that notion, disproving it and overturning stacked odds.

The Talbot position, voting against almost inevitable change because they feel it's above them, is that not a bit like Kello or Lugar running out in the "Best Big Team in Ayrshire Cup" at Beechwood and saying to each other, "let's keep it to 5 before half-time lads" - make a game of it, FFS.

My friend, your response is as predictable as it is popular among the pro pyramid lobby. However, as much as there is some merit in some of what you say you overlook some important issues. Ambition is indeed commendable, however there are instances where ambition can be blind, or worse ruthless.

I will give you two examples of blind ambition having dire consequence.

Leeds United are a club who have a fine tradition and I would argue many would agree belong in the top division. However a series of decisions fuelled by blind ambition gambling to win the Champions League almost put them out the game and they have never quite got back to what I would consider to be their level.  A bit closer to home, Gretna, a club caught up in hype projecting them way beyond their natural level, bankrolled by a rich businessman and did go out of business. Two examples of how hype and inappropriate ambition can have adverse consequence.

Ruthless ambition?

The Champions League is a tournament which will be soon only the domain of rich clubs from big countries, so far removed from the fantastic romance of the old European Cup as is possible. This is a prime example of clubs so rich it would appear greed and selfishness is the motivating factor. Despite all the money this tournament will be  poorer for it due to the fact that it will become utterly elitist and be void of the romance that was so prevalent before ruthless ambition took hold.

The English Premiership is awash with money, so much so that average footballers are on 100k per week and the club who finish last get 100 million prize money, and yet it is estimated that half these clubs tinker on the edge of bankruptcy. The ruthlessness by which one league grabs so much money and fail to manage this properly because of unrealistic attainment targets and success is stark. This is a vivid illustration of inappropriate ambition having a negative impact.

To conclude realistic ambition tempered by awareness is what is required. As for Talbot, they are not of the opinion that they are inferior to any club, or better for that matter, they know what they are and the level they will thrive.  Ayrshire have two senior clubs, fine institutions that they are, however between them their average home support would belucky  fill Beechwood, never mind Rugby Park or even Somerset, so why on earth would we want another senior club in Ayrshire? You say Junior competitions are worthless, so how have Talbot progressed both on and off the park so well? All the wealth in the pyramid? What will happen with  that once the floodgates open a dozens of Junior clubs want a share? You, like most of the pro pyramid gang have been dazzled by the bright lights.  As for telling big Henry and his team how to run Talbot, well that is so far beyond teaching your granny to suck eggs.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

My friend, your response is as predictable as it is popular among the pro pyramid lobby. However, as much as there is some merit in some of what you say you overlook some important issues. Ambition is indeed commendable, however there are instances where ambition can be blind, or worse ruthless.

I will give you two examples of blind ambition having dire consequence.

Leeds United are a club who have a fine tradition and I would argue many would agree belong in the top division. However a series of decisions fuelled by blind ambition gambling to win the Champions League almost put them out the game and they have never quite got back to what I would consider to be their level.  A bit closer to home, Gretna, a club caught up in hype projecting them way beyond their natural level, bankrolled by a rich businessman and did go out of business. Two examples of how hype and inappropriate ambition can have adverse consequence.

Ruthless ambition?

The Champions League is a tournament which will be soon only the domain of rich clubs from big countries, so far removed from the fantastic romance of the old European Cup as is possible. This is a prime example of clubs so rich it would appear greed and selfishness is the motivating factor. Despite all the money this tournament will be  poorer for it due to the fact that it will become utterly elitist and be void of the romance that was so prevalent before ruthless ambition took hold.

The English Premiership is awash with money, so much so that average footballers are on 100k per week and the club who finish last get 100 million prize money, and yet it is estimated that half these clubs tinker on the edge of bankruptcy. The ruthlessness by which one league grabs so much money and fail to manage this properly because of unrealistic attainment targets and success is stark. This is a vivid illustration of inappropriate ambition having a negative impact.

To conclude realistic ambition tempered by awareness is what is required. As for Talbot, they are not of the opinion that they are inferior to any club, or better for that matter, they know what they are and the level they will thrive.  Ayrshire have two senior clubs, fine institutions that they are, however between them their average home support would belucky  fill Beechwood, never mind Rugby Park or even Somerset, so why on earth would we want another senior club in Ayrshire? You say Junior competitions are worthless, so how have Talbot progressed both on and off the park so well? All the wealth in the pyramid? What will happen with  that once the floodgates open a dozens of Junior clubs want a share? You, like most of the pro pyramid gang have been dazzled by the bright lights.  As for telling big Henry and his team how to run Talbot, well that is so far beyond teaching your granny to suck eggs.

Dear god    "Pro Pyramid Gang"  I might have to change my signature.

[Burnie_man]

Tranent and now Musselburgh Athletic holding meetings next week.  I get the impression that the EoSFL wont be closing the door on new applications come 31st March.

[tinto]

It may be 20 years too late but at least there are moves in a positive direction in my opinion. However a separate organisation which is not aligned to the SFA set up will not solve the problem. The thinking should always be that you are dealing with football clubs and should not give them labels (Senior or Junior).

The good well run clubs like Auchinleck, Cumnock, Pollok, Clydebank etc should be allowed to compete on equal terms with other non league sides in the country. This would benefit the Scottish game as a whole I believe.

[Afrojim]

8 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

All the wealth in the pyramid? What will happen with  that once the floodgates open a dozens of Junior clubs want a share?

Even if all the Junior clubs, North Caledonian League Clubs and Glasgow University joined the pyramid and became full members (if they aren't already), and all current unlicensed clubs currently within the structure also became licensed, then the money available to them in the seniors would still remain higher than that available in the juniors. 

There were 91 clubs in the Scottish cup this season. If all juniors and NCL teams joined the structure that would equal 270 clubs. If you divide the prize money available in the Scottish Cup by 3 then the money on offer is still higher than what 99% of clubs earn in the Junior Cup. 

[Ross.]

21 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

My friend, your response is as predictable as it is popular among the pro pyramid lobby. However, as much as there is some merit in some of what you say you overlook some important issues. Ambition is indeed commendable, however there are instances where ambition can be blind, or worse ruthless.

I will give you two examples of blind ambition having dire consequence.

Leeds United are a club who have a fine tradition and I would argue many would agree belong in the top division. However a series of decisions fuelled by blind ambition gambling to win the Champions League almost put them out the game and they have never quite got back to what I would consider to be their level.  A bit closer to home, Gretna, a club caught up in hype projecting them way beyond their natural level, bankrolled by a rich businessman and did go out of business. Two examples of how hype and inappropriate ambition can have adverse consequence.

Ruthless ambition?

The Champions League is a tournament which will be soon only the domain of rich clubs from big countries, so far removed from the fantastic romance of the old European Cup as is possible. This is a prime example of clubs so rich it would appear greed and selfishness is the motivating factor. Despite all the money this tournament will be  poorer for it due to the fact that it will become utterly elitist and be void of the romance that was so prevalent before ruthless ambition took hold.

The English Premiership is awash with money, so much so that average footballers are on 100k per week and the club who finish last get 100 million prize money, and yet it is estimated that half these clubs tinker on the edge of bankruptcy. The ruthlessness by which one league grabs so much money and fail to manage this properly because of unrealistic attainment targets and success is stark. This is a vivid illustration of inappropriate ambition having a negative impact.

To conclude realistic ambition tempered by awareness is what is required. As for Talbot, they are not of the opinion that they are inferior to any club, or better for that matter, they know what they are and the level they will thrive.  Ayrshire have two senior clubs, fine institutions that they are, however between them their average home support would belucky  fill Beechwood, never mind Rugby Park or even Somerset, so why on earth would we want another senior club in Ayrshire? You say Junior competitions are worthless, so how have Talbot progressed both on and off the park so well? All the wealth in the pyramid? What will happen with  that once the floodgates open a dozens of Junior clubs want a share? You, like most of the pro pyramid gang have been dazzled by the bright lights.  As for telling big Henry and his team how to run Talbot, well that is so far beyond teaching your granny to suck eggs.

Leeds and Gretna cannot really be held up as an example of ambition gone wrong. At best, they can be used as good examples of reckless spending and poor contingency planning. Plenty of people seen both coming and many of them gave plenty of warning. It was varying degrees of utter stupidity/ego massaging, thinly masked as ambition.

As for "More senior clubs in Ayrshire", I fail to see the relevance. Football teams are football teams. The need to distinguish between "Senior" and "Junior" is an archaic relic that should be done away with. Fully professional or semi professional, it doesn't matter, you should be able to push yourself as far as possible and the current set up doesn't let teams do that.

The English Premiership and Champions League are completely irrelevant to the grass roots and lower reaches of the Scottish game. If you want to use them as a means of comparison, you shouldn't be involved in the discussion. There is no reasonable basis to even consider them when talking about rearranging the arse end of Scottish football.

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Ross.

[Guest]

Just now, Ross. said:

Leeds and Gretna cannot really be held up as an example of ambition gone wrong. At best, they can be used as good examples of reckless spending and poor contingency planning. Plenty of people seen both coming and many of them gave plenty of warning. It was varying degrees of utter stupidity, thinly masked as ambition.

As for "More senior clubs in Ayrshire", I fail to see the relevance. Football teams are football teams. The need to distinguish between "Senior" and "Junior" is an archaic relic that should be done away with. Fully professional or semi professional, it doesn't matter, you should be able to push yourself as far as possible and the current set up doesn't let teams do that.

The English Premiership and Champions League are completely irrelevant to the grass roots and lower reaches of the Scottish game. If you want to use them as a means of comparison, you shouldn't be involved in the discussion. There is no reasonable basis to even consider them when talking about rearranging the arse end of Scottish football.

 

How can you say that Leeds totally over stretching themselves was not about ambition to win the Champion League? How can you say that Gretna's unrealistic ambition to go as high as they can never caused their downfall? That was the catalyst for the "varying degrees of stupidity".  

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Leeds and Gretna cannot really be held up as an example of ambition gone wrong. At best, they can be used as good examples of reckless spending and poor contingency planning. Plenty of people seen both coming and many of them gave plenty of warning. It was varying degrees of utter stupidity/ego massaging, thinly masked as ambition.

As for "More senior clubs in Ayrshire", I fail to see the relevance. Football teams are football teams. The need to distinguish between "Senior" and "Junior" is an archaic relic that should be done away with. Fully professional or semi professional, it doesn't matter, you should be able to push yourself as far as possible and the current set up doesn't let teams do that.

The English Premiership and Champions League are completely irrelevant to the grass roots and lower reaches of the Scottish game. If you want to use them as a means of comparison, you shouldn't be involved in the discussion. There is no reasonable basis to even consider them when talking about rearranging the arse end of Scottish football.

 

He might be right, I mean it's not as if there are any examples of Junior clubs getting themselves in over their heads financially and either folding or struggling to survive. There's no Gretna style sugar daddies,  that only happens in big fitba and you'll be fighting them off if you go Senior......

[kefc]

Theres no really much change in the the pyramid to what the Juniors have at the minute, the logical solution would be to have 2 East and West Of Scotland Divisions with regional leagues underneath, Scottish Junior Cup for all non league clubs (keep the name for historical reasons???)

Tier 5 - Highland & Lowland

Tier 6 & 7 - North Div 1 -- East Of Scotland Div 1 & 2 -- West Of Scotland Div 1 & 2 -- South Of Scotland Div 1

Tier 8 & 9 - North Leagues, Fife & Tayside Leagues, Lothians Leagues, Central Leagues, Ayrshire Leagues

The shot in the arm non league football can get from everyone working together could be huge in terms of exposure. The strong force of working as 1 for the greater good and the removal of the glass ceiling although keeping regional football at certain levels caters for all big and small clubs, it becomes really attractive for clubs and the public.

If agreement is reached then given a can do attitude, good marketing and how the product is sold to supporters, sponsors, the public then non league football will flourish. Being part of something successful wether thats a club or a product that delivers is very much attractive to supporters and companies who are potential sponsors of not only clubs but also big companies who may be interested in getting involved as League and Cup sponsors, they can feel valued with an excellent  product showing off their brand.

The magic of Junior football that we all love and loved is slowly dying, theres no hiding from that, crowds are down, sponsors are down and the grade doesnt sell itself great. All clubs sell there self incredibly well and are doing a brilliant job but the SJFA are failing by not engaging and moving with the modern times. There is a need to preserve the great village and town clubs into something modern where working as 1, exposure and rewards in a vibrant grade can really boost the non league in Scotland.

Scottish Football although some may argue is going in the right direction imo, the youths coming through to the national team are getting better due to the performance schools and work done in acadamys, reserve team football coming back is a positive, crowds are up at most clubs, theres a new league sponsorship and tv deal coming in 2020, most of the SPFL clubs are doing great work posting profits with no debt attached to their clubs, Aberdeen, Hearts Hibs and Rangers all improving on and off the pitch slowly getting closer to Celtic, its tracking fairly well just now id say.

Get round the table, get this sorted with no agenda's, no self preservation and get non league football thriving in the quickest time possible with a can do, forward thinking and ambitious approach.

Edited April 9, 2018 by kefc

[Ross.]

2 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

How can you say that Leeds totally over stretching themselves was not about ambition to win the Champion League? How can you say that Gretna's unrealistic ambition to go as high as they can never caused their downfall? That was the catalyst for the "varying degrees of stupidity".  

There is a huge difference between ambition and recklessness. Both examples may have been couched in ambition but both were absolutely reckless. Any sensible FA/governing body would have nipped both in the bud before they got too far. It says more about the footballing authorities that nothing was done to prevent two very obvious cases where the clubs were only ever going to end up going one way.

If you have to try and use extremes as your argument then you don't have much to argue with.

Why not look at Brechin or Dumbarton? Both semi professional sides with reasonably small regular crowds who are playing in the second top league in the country. How many sides in the junior grade could replicate them without risking their futures through utter stupidity?

[Afrojim]

35 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

A bit closer to home, Gretna, a club caught up in hype projecting them way beyond their natural level, bankrolled by a rich businessman and did go out of business.

A bit closer to home, Ballingry Rovers etc.

[Goalie Hamish]

My friend, your response is as predictable as it is popular among the pro pyramid lobby. However, as much as there is some merit in some of what you say you overlook some important issues. Ambition is indeed commendable, however there are instances where ambition can be blind, or worse ruthless.
I will give you two examples of blind ambition having dire consequence.
Leeds United are a club who have a fine tradition and I would argue many would agree belong in the top division. However a series of decisions fuelled by blind ambition gambling to win the Champions League almost put them out the game and they have never quite got back to what I would consider to be their level.  A bit closer to home, Gretna, a club caught up in hype projecting them way beyond their natural level, bankrolled by a rich businessman and did go out of business. Two examples of how hype and inappropriate ambition can have adverse consequence.
Ruthless ambition?
The Champions League is a tournament which will be soon only the domain of rich clubs from big countries, so far removed from the fantastic romance of the old European Cup as is possible. This is a prime example of clubs so rich it would appear greed and selfishness is the motivating factor. Despite all the money this tournament will be  poorer for it due to the fact that it will become utterly elitist and be void of the romance that was so prevalent before ruthless ambition took hold.
The English Premiership is awash with money, so much so that average footballers are on 100k per week and the club who finish last get 100 million prize money, and yet it is estimated that half these clubs tinker on the edge of bankruptcy. The ruthlessness by which one league grabs so much money and fail to manage this properly because of unrealistic attainment targets and success is stark. This is a vivid illustration of inappropriate ambition having a negative impact.
To conclude realistic ambition tempered by awareness is what is required. As for Talbot, they are not of the opinion that they are inferior to any club, or better for that matter, they know what they are and the level they will thrive.  Ayrshire have two senior clubs, fine institutions that they are, however between them their average home support would belucky  fill Beechwood, never mind Rugby Park or even Somerset, so why on earth would we want another senior club in Ayrshire? You say Junior competitions are worthless, so how have Talbot progressed both on and off the park so well? All the wealth in the pyramid? What will happen with  that once the floodgates open a dozens of Junior clubs want a share? You, like most of the pro pyramid gang have been dazzled by the bright lights.  As for telling big Henry and his team how to run Talbot, well that is so far beyond teaching your granny to suck eggs.

Holy f**k [emoji23]

[Deeside Dynamo]

58 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

If an WoSFL comes to fruition, then long term it surely must lead to the SoSFL integrating in some way, it’s never going to be a strong enough league to produce play-off winners when up against WoSFL and EoSFL.

If the LL goes to three relegation spots then all three feeders may get a spot each but is the SoSFL strong enough and do their clubs actually want it? Like the smaller clubs currently in the EoSFL who are in theory one promotion from the LL but are about the be inundated with stronger members, the SoSFL clubs may have to accept their future lies further down the Pyramid rather than having direct access to the LL.

IMO the SoSFL will have to intigrate or it will be cut adrift at the earliest opportunity. The top five or six clubs could maybe hold their own if a WoSFL was formed and, I dare say, three or four would maybe look at applying. I get the feeling that there's maybe a similar scenario to the more dissenting voices in the junior game within some clubs where they think that it's not broken and doesn't need fixed, however, that isn't the case in fact it's the polar opposite.  Some clubs need to look at the bigger picture and realise if they don't move with the times they'll be left behind.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

IMO the SoSFL will have to intigrate or it will be cut adrift at the earliest opportunity. The top five or six clubs could maybe hold their own if a WoSFL was formed and, I dare say, three or four would maybe look at applying. I get the feeling that there's maybe a similar scenario to the more dissenting voices in the junior game within some clubs where they think that it's not broken and doesn't need fixed, however, that isn't the case in fact it's the polar opposite.  Some clubs need to look at the bigger picture and realise if they don't move with the times they'll be left behind.

Do you honestly think those clubs could compete with Clubs in the West Super Premier? I suspect not, what will happen should they get relegated, back to SOS?