Junior football, what is the future?

[Garret Deasy]

On 2/12/2018 at 02:45, Bigjimmcalpine said:

You can't really compare like for like at the moment though as there's currently no need to finish on time for the LL playoffs , if need be then the juniors would make sure that the season is tweaked to do so, they would do what it takes to do so therefore it's not really a relative point just now .

I have never known the people who run junior football to "do what it takes" if it means disrupting their "the way we have always done it".

Whether planning fixtures ahead of next week or the week after next or even fiddling around with leagues always seems to be too much. They just can't be arsed.  Even when a few forward thinking clubs get together to look at reorganizing leagues in a considered and logical way this is seen as treasonable behaviour. 

Allowing junior football to be consumed by the SFA into their  pyramid is merely a way for the people running the SJFA to avoid making decisions that require thought or even understanding of the game they purport to lead.

The SJFA is not alone in this incompetent behaiour. Only need to look at the SFA giving Chief Exec the old heave ho, no doubt with nice package to compensate for unfair dismissal and to keep his mouth shut. Malky the bigot now being a shoo in for Scotland job, the organisation being clueless and directionless. 

[superbigal]

No floodlights and the Junior Cup mean that there is zero chance of a current top Junior league finishing before the 2nd week in May!

With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

[MacGafraidh]

2 hours ago, superbigal said:

 

 

With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

 

 

fixture list????? What madness is this????

[Kilbowie Benches]

2 hours ago, superbigal said:

 

 

 

 

With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

 

 

With the same guy in charge of fixtures?   Not a chance.

[Cyclizine]

With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

Crivens, you'll be suggesting using the Devil's Illuminations next!

[Sergeant Wilson]

7 hours ago, superbigal said:

 

 

With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

 

 

Yes, printed! So that it can be handed out at the start of the season. This internet fad will soon pass.

[Robert James]

On 12/02/2018 at 00:55, Che Dail said:

Given that the member clubs currently in the pyramid will be the ones voting on the SJFA proposals, tell us what you make of this:

PYRAMID

Whilst it could be argued that Pyramid could aid the development of the game in Scotland, some would also suggest that the concept of the Lowland League was flawed – primarily being a rebadged East of Scotland League with geography rather that merit being part of the selection process.   However, over the last 5 seasons, standards both on and off the park have improved in the Lowland League.

The newly formed East Kilbride FC have been consistently improving on the pitch and all 16 clubs now are Club Licensed.

The down side however is the “nomadic” clubs who have no fixed abode nor demonstrable support, together with Stirling and Edinburgh Universities and one could be excused for asking what they bring to the game overall.

Very poorly worded, a certain level of arrogance displayed in this passage which permeates through the whole paper unfortunately. 

It also has several typos, factual inaccuracies, spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, and they've got the name of some clubs wrong.  How to win friends and influence people.  The wrong illustrations are used to describe the options, the pyramid diagram is confusing (the bands don't line up with the text) and the survey itself is woefully inadequate - 3 poorly selected questions to determine the future of Junior football. 

Do the North clubs just ignore it since Options A and B don't include them at all?  Why is there not an option for the East Region clubs to merge in with the East of Scotland League?

The language & tone of the document and the basic Word formatting of the thing is decidedly amateurish - it just doesn't fit with the SFA media image or PR profile  - they've had nothing to do with this.  

As a progression of Option A, the national Junior Association should simply break up and split into distinct regions, join the pyramid and promote its top clubs into the Lowland and Highland Leagues.  The East Region clubs should merge in with the established East of Scotland League feeder and the North Region assoc should lead their clubs into a North Association. It's fairly simple and straightforward.

The 'Junior' name could still be survived in the Scottish Junior Cup for non-licensed clubs below the LL and HL, if they wish to participate.  

 

Do the  "senior" non league clubs really want all of the  Junior leagues to be slotted  into the pyramid, and would they support such a proposal ?    Unlikely ? 

Where will the SPFL clubs stand on the establishment of a nationally integrated, top to bottom "pyramid" structure, requiring compulsory promotion and relegation throughout (not just play-offs) which would be the inevitable outcome? 

By comparison, what proportion of the Junior clubs will want to commit to a "pyramid", which would be a feeder league to the HFL & SLL, and ultimately to the SPFL ?  Probably not many in the West and North, and a few  from the East.  Whilst the results of the survey will be interesting,  the outcome will be indecisive,  which raises the question, will the SFA take positive steps to determine and implement an integrated structure, or will it give way to existing vested interests and be content to allow the present 'drift' to continue ?

Or perhaps there will be a split  within the SJFA itself ?  The next few months should be very interesting.

 

 

 

[Ross.]

10 hours ago, Robert James said:

Do the  "senior" non league clubs really want all of the  Junior leagues to be slotted  into the pyramid, and would they support such a proposal ?    Unlikely ? 

Where will the SPFL clubs stand on the establishment of a nationally integrated, top to bottom "pyramid" structure, requiring compulsory promotion and relegation throughout (not just play-offs) which would be the inevitable outcome? 

By comparison, what proportion of the Junior clubs will want to commit to a "pyramid", which would be a feeder league to the HFL & SLL, and ultimately to the SPFL ?  Probably not many in the West and North, and a few  from the East.  Whilst the results of the survey will be interesting,  the outcome will be indecisive,  which raises the question, will the SFA take positive steps to determine and implement an integrated structure, or will it give way to existing vested interests and be content to allow the present 'drift' to continue ?

Or perhaps there will be a split  within the SJFA itself ?  The next few months should be very interesting.

Why should promotion be compulsory? If teams do not have the facilities or feel they can afford the financial input that promotion would require, they should be allowed to refuse and the position offered to the next best side.

[Jambo'ness]

1 hour ago, Ross. said:

Why should promotion be compulsory? If teams do not have the facilities or feel they can afford the financial input that promotion would require, they should be allowed to refuse and the position offered to the next best side.

Exactly.  It's not compulsory in the English pyramid.  This whole 'adventure' should be about finding the right fit for all clubs, regardless of size.  Forcing clubs to go further than they wish, or can afford, would be counter-productive.

[Patches O'Houlihan]

3 hours ago, Ross. said:

Why should promotion be compulsory? If teams do not have the facilities or feel they can afford the financial input that promotion would require, they should be allowed to refuse and the position offered to the next best side.

It’s not really meritorious then? Say the first 4/5 clubs refuse to go up, how far do you go down?

[Ross.]

1 minute ago, Patches O'Houlihan said:

It’s not really meritorious then? Say the first 4/5 clubs refuse to go up, how far do you go down?

If the first 4/5 sides refuse then that's a shame for them. The club who finish 5/6 get the chance to move up and improve themselves. If they aren't good enough they go straight back down.

If a team wins a league but has to upgrade their ground to meet the criteria to move up a division and they don't have that money, forcing them to find it or play elsewhere is creating other problems. Chances are that side will end up selling their better players and coming straight back down, or borrowing money and losing long term revenue as a result of having to satisfy debts they have been forced into taking on. Over the long term that is worse for the game.

[Patches O'Houlihan]

29 minutes ago, Ross. said:

If the first 4/5 sides refuse then that's a shame for them. The club who finish 5/6 get the chance to move up and improve themselves. If they aren't good enough they go straight back down.

If a team wins a league but has to upgrade their ground to meet the criteria to move up a division and they don't have that money, forcing them to find it or play elsewhere is creating other problems. Chances are that side will end up selling their better players and coming straight back down, or borrowing money and losing long term revenue as a result of having to satisfy debts they have been forced into taking on. Over the long term that is worse for the game.

There are 2 ways of looking at this. If the promotion issue is enforced in an already established league then your scenario is fair enough. However, if teams enter into a new league set up, and know the rules before they start, then they can have no complaints.

In my opinion no relegation or promotion means our game stagnates, and we are in no position to further damage the Scottish game as a whole.

[Ross.]

5 minutes ago, Patches O'Houlihan said:

There are 2 ways of looking at this. If the promotion issue is enforced in an already established league then your scenario is fair enough. However, if teams enter into a new league set up, and know the rules before they start, then they can have no complaints.

In my opinion no relegation or promotion means our game stagnates, and we are in no position to further damage the Scottish game as a whole.

Scenario 1 there: A team enters the league set up having committed to upgrading their facilities over a 5 year period, not expecting instant success and figuring they have a couple of years to bed in and find their feet. They confound expectations and are as surprised as everyone when they win the league at the first time of asking. They have committed to improving their ground but do not have everything in place yet, and to speed things up will mean over extending themselves financially. Should they be forced into moving up a league?

The point of the pyramid is that everyone finds their level eventually. If some are happy to remain at the lower end, good for them. If others want to push themselves further up, good for them too. Forcing clubs to make decisions that could make or break them when there is an obvious alternative available is crazy.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Ross.

[HTG]

As things stand there is no forced promotion from the EoS or SoS league as far as I can see.  LTHV or Leith have won the last 4 EoS league for the last 4 seasons. Both are still plying their trade there rather than in the LL. Nobody has forced LTHV to move to alternative premises, secure a licence or whatever. All that's happened is that nobody has been promoted. 

In fact, when Threave finished bottom, they ought to have been relegated but neither Leith nor St Cuthberts were licenced. Therefore, Threave were given the opportunity to remain in the Lowland League. They declined and relegated themselves because of the travelling. 

So, there is no reason why any club should be compelled to go to a level they feel they cannot sustain. The precedent within the current pyramid structure is already established on that front - although moving up/down between SPFL and HL/LL is compulsory which feels fair enough to me - there has to come a point and Tier 5 is probably right. 

Therefore junior teams should not feel they have to over stretch. But the promotion spot wouldn't pass to the next team. It would stick in the craw for me if I was a supporter of a licenced team who was consistently blocked by a team like LTHV. I need to find out more about them but it feels like they should be getting licenced, moved or whatever. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by HTG

[Ross.]

12 minutes ago, HTG said:

As things stand there is no forced promotion from the EoS or SoS league as far as I can see.  LTHV or Leith have won the last 4 EoS league for the last 4 seasons. Both are still plying their trade there rather than in the LL. Nobody has forced LTHV to move to alternative premises, secure a licence or whatever. All that's happened is that nobody has been promoted. 

In fact, when Threave finished bottom, they ought to have been relegated but neither Leith nor St Cuthberts were licenced. Therefore, Threave were given the opportunity to remain in the Lowland League. They declined and relegated themselves because of the travelling. 

So, there is no reason why any club should be compelled to go to a level they feel they cannot sustain. The precedent within the current pyramid structure is already established on that front - although moving up/down between SPFL and HL/LL is compulsory which feels fair enough to me - there has to come a point and Tier 5 is probably right. 

Therefore junior teams should not feel they have to over stretch. But the promotion spot wouldn't pass to the next team. It would stick in the craw for me if I was a supporter of a licenced team who was consistently blocked by a team like LTHV. I need to find out more about them but it feels like they should be getting licenced, moved or whatever. 

That bit is why I would offer promotion to the next team. Would prevent sides who have no interest in moving up from preventing others who are ready and willing.

[mrman2011]

Personally if no junior team wants in to the pyramid then the SFA should fine them and if it forces them to go under..... who cares as horrible as that may sound

Junior football is from a bygone era. Sure it had its purpose then, it doesn’t now and it’s not going to come back and the bigots who are involved in it belong in the past too

We need to evolve and get better, scraping the juniors will be just the start

[honestly united]

I think as things stand would be good enough segregation of teams that want to progress and those that dont / cant afford to.

Club licence required for entry to LL / HL would keep those interested in playing locally only in either EoS, SoS, WoS, NCL, North / East / West Junior top league. Further up the SPFL there are already miniumum requirements so those could be kept as at present I dont think are prohibative (now the 10k all seater has been removed)

Below that for entry into other levels could be set as required - ie minimum changing facilities and fenced off pitch for ammy teams  wanting in at the bottom of the leagues mentioned above.

 

[Mr Illustrious]

40 minutes ago, mrman2011 said:

Personally if no junior team wants in to the pyramid then the SFA should fine them and if it forces them to go under..... who cares as horrible as that may sound

Junior football is from a bygone era. Sure it had its purpose then, it doesn’t now and it’s not going to come back and the bigots who are involved in it belong in the past too

We need to evolve and get better, scraping the juniors will be just the start

I’m not a gynaecologist but I know a c**t when I see one.

[Jason King]

45 minutes ago, mrman2011 said:

Personally if no junior team wants in to the pyramid then the SFA should fine them and if it forces them to go under..... who cares as horrible as that may sound

Junior football is from a bygone era. Sure it had its purpose then, it doesn’t now and it’s not going to come back and the bigots who are involved in it belong in the past too

We need to evolve and get better, scraping the juniors will be just the start

Obvious troll is obvious.

You've been laughed out of the Colts thread with you piss poor attempts at trolling and yet here you are back again in a desperate attempt for attention.

Pitiful sire, pitiful.

[RobM]

6 hours ago, mrman2011 said:

Personally if no junior team wants in to the pyramid then the SFA should fine them and if it forces them to go under..... who cares as horrible as that may sound

Junior football is from a bygone era. Sure it had its purpose then, it doesn’t now and it’s not going to come back and the bigots who are involved in it belong in the past too

We need to evolve and get better, scraping the juniors will be just the start

Haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw.

Arse.