Junior football, what is the future?

[db11]

1 hour ago, RabidAl said:

The statement refers specifically to the East of Scotland League and the promotion criteria, so I think you're mistaken there:

Not mistaken mate, Bonnyrigg had no intention of going to join the pyramid, at that time.

[RabidAl]

^ Nae bother.  I was just concerned that they had opted out based on a misunderstanding.

------

I checked the location of the lowland/highland divide on Ordnance Survey Explorer Map 382 (Arbroath, Montrose & Carnoustie) North Sheet.

56 45 13 N is about where the River North Esk meets Montrose Bay, or at the southern-most tip of Aberdeenshire.

So it seems that any SPFL club from Angus relegated to the non-league would all along have been relegated to the Lowland League, and that non-league clubs from Angus and Dundee would have been/would be eligible for the Lowland League route into the SPFL.

[LongTimeLurker]

Or they quietly changed the latitude number at some point to keep Montrose and the Highland League happy, because it was definitely the mouth of the Tay initially. The old Tayside league junior clubs tend to have reasonably good grounds compared to those from the old Fife league with many even having the so called devil's illumination installed, so some of those clubs can't be too far away on licensing. Given the Lowland league isn't drastically greater in geographical scope than the East Superleague it will be interesting to see, if not having to go to Wick, Brora and Fort William changes anybody's perspective on what the best way ahead is.

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 hours ago, RabidAl said:

^ Nae bother.  I was just concerned that they had opted out based on a misunderstanding.

------

I checked the location of the lowland/highland divide on Ordnance Survey Explorer Map 382 (Arbroath, Montrose & Carnoustie) North Sheet.

56 45 13 N is about where the River North Esk meets Montrose Bay, or at the southern-most tip of Aberdeenshire.

So it seems that any SPFL club from Angus relegated to the non-league would all along have been relegated to the Lowland League, and that non-league clubs from Angus and Dundee would have been/would be eligible for the Lowland League route into the SPFL.

DOes that not create the problem with Montrose Roselea in the Juniors playing in the North REgion as it was easier for them.

[RabidAl]

21 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Or they quietly changed the latitude number at some point to keep Montrose and the Highland League happy, because it was definitely the mouth of the Tay initially. The old Tayside league junior clubs tend to have reasonably good grounds compared to those from the old Fife league with many even having the so called devil's illumination installed, so some of those clubs can't be too far away on licensing. Given the Lowland league isn't drastically greater in geographical scope than the East Superleague it will be interesting to see, if not having to go to Wick, Brora and Fort William changes anybody's perspective on what the best way ahead is.

Hehe, it wouldn't be a surprise if they did something like that!  But a quick search of 56,4513N on google shows many results dated from years ago referencing the same latitude, as does the HL website link I posted a bit further up this page.  It seems that us guerrilla fact-checkers were, on this occasion, egregiously wrong (normal state of affairs for me). 

20 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

DOes that not create the problem with Montrose Roselea in the Juniors playing in the North REgion as it was easier for them.

Could do, but I would hope that clubs based near the border/marches could be accommodated wherever they felt it was easier for them to play (distribution of opponents may be different in juniors to seniors for Montrose clubs?).

[kenny131]

So Kelty left to join the pyramid and Dalkeith were next to stamp there colours to the mast. Now another 2 big guns from the east are leaving end of season linlithgow and Bo'ness.

Teams in the west are being left behind unless something gets sorted rapid.

[Harry's Corner]

So Kelty left to join the pyramid and Dalkeith were next to stamp there colours to the mast. Now another 2 big guns from the east are leaving end of season linlithgow and Bo'ness.
Teams in the west are being left behind unless something gets sorted rapid.

I see your point but Steady the ships Kenny with Beith,Kilbirnie,Pollok, Talbot and Glens to name a few the juniors in the west will survive. The sjfa will be jolted into something soon.

[happy]

So,how many  routes are there into the pirimid at present? Bearing in mind that pirimids are big at the bottom and pointy at the top.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, happy said:

So,how many  routes are there into the pirimid at present? Bearing in mind that pirimids are big at the bottom and pointy at the top.

Realistically, just through the EoSFL & SoSFL. Since the change to the SFA Licencing requiring a "commitment to the pyramid" there hasn't been a club to push the issue in the North, as Golspie Sutherland had their historical membership and Banks O'Dee were licenced before the change was made.  Leaving the pyramid as more of a mishappen mutli storey building.

 

[San Starko Rover]

So Kelty left to join the pyramid and Dalkeith were next to stamp there colours to the mast. Now another 2 big guns from the east are leaving end of season linlithgow and Bo'ness.

Teams in the west are being left behind unless something gets sorted rapid.

 

Hadn’t heard linlithgow and Bo’Ness we’re moving end of season is that official? I know Bo’Ness said they were but hadn’t specified when last I saw. Saw someone mention a possible WoS league with Colt teams. Have any West Juniors been approached outside the BSC email? Personally I’m against Colt teams as they bring nothing as proved by the challenge cup where the crowds were terrible and both OF teams were dumped at round 1. I’d much rather see Junior teams join than Colt teams.

[LongTimeLurker]

It's Bo'ness as in an abbreviated form of Borrowstounness with a small "n" not Bo'Ness for what it's worth. Not sure where this Linlithgow Rose thing is coming from. There were some rumours that they looked into it towards the end of last season, but it would have to go to a vote of their membership and I think we would have heard about it on here if that had happened. Bo'ness United have been more vocal about it publicly but are also not at the stage where a final decision has been made, as far as I am aware, but are putting everything in place to be able to get licensing at some point down the road. As things stand a superleague club in the west is having a postal vote of its members at the moment to decide whether to switch to the senior grade. Clydebank are known to have been exploring EoS league entry for next season along with Dalkeith Thistle and a third club yet to be named from East Lothian, who are probably Haddington Athletic.

Edited January 20, 2018 by LongTimeLurker

[Che Dail]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's Bo'ness as in an abbreviated form of Borrowstounness with a small "n" not Bo'Ness for what it's worth. Not sure where this Linlithgow Rose thing is coming from. There were some rumours that they looked into it towards the end of last season, but it would have to go to a vote of their membership and I think we would have heard about it on here if that had happened. Bo'ness United have been more vocal about it publicly but are also not at the stage where a final decision has been made, as far as I am aware, but are putting everything in place to be able to get licensing at some point down the road. As things stand a superleague club in the west is having a postal vote of its members at the moment to decide whether to switch to the senior grade. Clydebank are known to have been exploring EoS league entry for next season along with Dalkeith Thistle and a third club yet to be named from East Lothian, who are probably Haddington Athletic.

The Premier League clubs stand to gain the most by switching now. Clubs like Haddington and Dunbar even with the set up they have must be close to meeting licence criteria. 

Their aim at the moment is promotion to the Super League, but what would be the point if Linlithgow and Bo'ness aren't in it?

Realistically they'd be better off aiming for the Lowland League, or EoS with license and a place in the Scottish Cup.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Che Dail

[kefc]

Bang on.

The EOS League could probably stretch to 18 teams this season before going to 2 divisions with maybe the teams at the lower end opting to go to the 2nd division to be more competitve,  clubs that get in quick will reap massive benefits.

A WOS League could be formed for next season with either the 12 or 16 top division West Region Juniors going in at Tier 6 or a collection of West region clubs that are interested in the pyramid and in getting rewarded for their hard work by achieving an SFA licence.

Dalkeith have to be applauded for thinking ahead, they could find themselves in a higher division than Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow, Boness etc if those clubs waited until the 18 places were to be taken and a 2nd division formed. Dalkeith (if/when licenced) could entice players with Scottish Cup entry or if they are successful the Lowland League. It could take a wee while to get into the Lowland League for some big clubs if they hang about, the better players will want to play in the LL or EOS and WOS League 1 that could be as early as next season.

With the diminishing player pool quality it could see attandances drop and set in a bit of apathy around some big clubs, all eyes will be on the Lowland League from the top non league players, next step would be the EOS, (Possible) WOS League 1 if they cant get into LL, after that clubs are getting whats left making it difficult. It could take years for clubs to recover.

Alot of people/clubs in Junior circles thought we were crazy in making our decision only 7 months ago, we done extensive research due to us having to join the pyramid to get our licence and it all pointed to the actions we took to better our club, now almost all other clubs (East & West) are doing their research which is very encouraging to see for non league football in Scotland. I may be wrong but I would have thought their would be some leadership and direction from the SJFA on this for their members, this silence will only lead strengthen the Pyramid setup to even the hardened Junior supporter.

Edited January 20, 2018 by kefc

[Glenconner]

What league are the old firm Colts going into?

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, kefc said:

Bang on.

The EOS League could probably stretch to 18 teams this season before going to 2 divisions with maybe the teams at the lower end opting to go to the 2nd division to be more competitve,  clubs that get in quick will reap massive benefits.

A WOS League could be formed for next season with either the 12 or 16 top division West Region Juniors going in at Tier 6 or a collection of West region clubs that are interested in the pyramid and in getting rewarded for their hard work by achieving an SFA licence.

Dalkeith have to be applauded for thinking ahead, they could find themselves in a higher division than Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow, Boness etc if those clubs waited until the 18 places were to be taken and a 2nd division formed. Dalkeith (if/when licenced) could entice players with Scottish Cup entry or if they are successful the Lowland League. It could take a wee while to get into the Lowland League for some big clubs if they hang about, the better players will want to play in the LL or EOS and WOS League 1 that could be as early as next season.

With the diminishing player pool quality it could see attandances drop and set in a bit of apathy around some big clubs, all eyes will be on the Lowland League from the top non league players, next step would be the EOS, (Possible) WOS League 1 if they cant get into LL, after that clubs are getting whats left making it difficult. It could take years for clubs to recover.

Alot of people/clubs in Junior circles thought we were crazy in making our decision only 7 months ago, we done extensive research due to us having to join the pyramid to get our licence and it all pointed to the actions we took to better our club, now almost all other clubs (East & West) are doing their research which is very encouraging to see for non league football in Scotland. I may be wrong but I would have thought their would be some leadership and direction from the SJFA on this for their members, this silence will only lead strengthen the Pyramid setup to even the hardened Junior supporter.

Have to admit KEFC i was one of the doubting Thomas's. Proved wrong, However I do feel jumping to the EOSFL is only worthwhile if you are going to be able to obtain a licence quickly. If not you are aswell waiting until it amalgamates.

[happy]

If a W.O.S. or similar league isn't set up teams in the West have nowhere to go.The take it or leave it choice wasn't practical last year and still isn't today.

[Jambo'ness]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Have to admit KEFC i was one of the doubting Thomas's. Proved wrong, However I do feel jumping to the EOSFL is only worthwhile if you are going to be able to obtain a licence quickly. If not you are aswell waiting until it amalgamates.

Good to see someone change their mind after being presented with facts. 

I do agree that unless a licence is forthcoming, it would seem little point in switching.  However, a time will come when applications may not be accepted.  On that basis, the risk has to be taken.

Nothing official regarding Bo'ness or Linlitgow has bee announced but it's commonly accepted that if one leaves so will the other.  If that was to happen, it would leave an East SuperLeague with a distinct Tayside bias.

[kefc]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Have to admit KEFC i was one of the doubting Thomas's. Proved wrong, However I do feel jumping to the EOSFL is only worthwhile if you are going to be able to obtain a licence quickly. If not you are aswell waiting until it amalgamates.

You were passionate about your club and the grade they play in so no worries, clubs/supporters are  now realising to build and improve their club then change needs to come or changes need to be made by themselves. If they wait on the SJFA who knows where clubs will be in 2-5 years, if they plan, research and have the bravery and foresight to take it into their own hands then it could really change their fortunes for the better.

From your view (Camelon) then granted it’s not easy, it will take big effort from the community, committee sponsors to get everyone on board buying into a vision both financially and time. There isn’t a lot of difference if any in a lot of licensed LL EOS  grounds and Junior clubs, if they can improve their ground, get their club into shape to meet requirements then why can’t Junior clubs get their licence who are arguably better supported. There is a carrot at the end of any hard work which has to be the common goal.

Your correct though in that timing is key. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by kefc

[Glenconner]

Has anybody asked what many of the Seniors think of this? Most of them are going mental over the Old Firm Colts never mind the thought of 160 Junior teams joining them.

[garrellburn]

17 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Has anybody asked what many of the Seniors think of this? Most of them are going mental over the Old Firm Colts never mind the thought of 160 Junior teams joining them.

It won't be anywhere near 160, my guess would be about a quarter of existing clubs at most.  Many might revert to amateur status which is what they effectively are anyway.