Junior football, what is the future?

[parsforlife]

Colts in the fucking sea

[Glenconner]

Could let the Juniors into that diddy cup Crusaders play in.

[HTG]

1 hour ago, parsforlife said:

How many south of Tay licences clubs are there now?

16 LL,
Glasgow uni
Linlithgow
Kelty
Burntisland
Preston
Coldstream
St cuthberts
Girvan
Newton Stewart
Threave
And in theory I guess Wigtown.(they are still listed)

Probably enough to go to a 12 team LL east and west, or even 14 east and 10 west
with the ability to accept more teams once licensed.

LL east
Kelty
Burntisland
Coldstream
Preston
Hawick
Gala
Vale of leithen
Civil service
Whitehill
Edinburgh uni
Spartans
east Stirlingshire
Stirling uni.
Linlithgow

LL west
Glasgow uni
Gretna
BSC Glasgow*
Edusport
East Kilbride
Cumbernauld
Dalbeattie
Threave
Newton Stewart
Girvan
St cuthberts


It's probably just about do able but it isn't exactly pretty especially in the west. Think we probably need to have a tier 6 WoS to build a stronger game in the west before LL can split.

Linlithgow, Stirling Uni and East Stirling all capable of playing in either east or west to balance numbers. Room for another 7 licenced clubs across the 2 leagues. Possibly more if some existing licenced clubs opt to stay at current SoS level. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by HTG

[Goalie Hamish]

Allow all Junior clubs a 12-18 month grace period to obtain a licence and play in a Lowland League West and East set-up for those interested straight away.

Ask for applications to fill the vacancies, with priority given on whether licence application already underway, and on league position.

Highest ranked club with a licence in each division enter 4-way play off with Highland and bottom SPFL club.

[Hillonearth]

2 hours ago, parsforlife said:

How many south of Tay licences clubs are there now?

16 LL,
Glasgow uni
Linlithgow
Kelty
Burntisland
Preston
Coldstream
St cuthberts
Girvan
Newton Stewart
Threave
And in theory I guess Wigtown.(they are still listed)

Probably enough to go to a 12 team LL east and west, or even 14 east and 10 west
with the ability to accept more teams once licensed.

LL east
Kelty
Burntisland
Coldstream
Preston
Hawick
Gala
Vale of leithen
Civil service
Whitehill
Edinburgh uni
Spartans
east Stirlingshire
Stirling uni.
Linlithgow

LL west
Glasgow uni
Gretna
BSC Glasgow*
Edusport
East Kilbride
Cumbernauld
Dalbeattie
Threave
Newton Stewart
Girvan
St cuthberts


It's probably just about do able but it isn't exactly pretty especially in the west. Think we probably need to have a tier 6 WoS to build a stronger game in the west before LL can split.

You're right, that proposed West division looks like a complete shitfest - there remains a big question mark that many of those teams would actually want to join it - I doubt sides like Glasgow Uni and Girvan would touch it with a bargepole for varying reasons; the Uni seem content to remain amateur and grandfather into the cup every year, and Girvan have just made the (Ayrshire-dominated) top tier of the Juniors for the first time and will be seeing a concomitant (yay...used it in a sentence!) upturn in exposure and crowd size.

Worth also bearing in mind Threave having already stepped up to the LL have retreated to the SoS to lick their wounds, and Saints did their level best to delay getting licensed to actively avoid the LL a few years ago. Newton haven't been close enough to promotion from the SoS that their attitude matters, which probably gives an accurate snapshot of where they are strength-wise.

Probably need to look further than the currently-licensed clubs to form something worthwhile. Stadiums are the main issue; some current junior grounds would undoubtedly cost a great deal to bring up to code, but the bar IS set quite low, and a good few are licenced already. The club licensing side of things is mainly paperwork and publishing codes of practice - I suspect all that holds some sides back from getting it done is the prospect of being shoehorned against their will into something along the lines of that list.

[Jambo'ness]

13 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Allow all Junior clubs a 12-18 month grace period to obtain a licence and play in a Lowland League West and East set-up for those interested straight away.

Ask for applications to fill the vacancies, with priority given on whether licence application already underway, and on league position.

Highest ranked club with a licence in each division enter 4-way play off with Highland and bottom SPFL club.

Your idea is good in principle but there is one potential problem.  That of balancing the playing side with developing the facilities.  Kelty had to go down that route and ended in a relegation play-off!  It would be great as long as no possible danger of relegation.

[AlanCamelonfan]

20 hours ago, HTG said:

Hopefully this is a step towards a 3 way split at Tier 5. If it's not that then whatever is necessary to unblock the issues that are preventing the game getting a proper structure.  That'll need movement from SPFL clubs though. Their preferred option was a national tier 5 structure but that's just nuts I'd have thought.  348 miles from Dalbeattie to Wick if both made it to tier 5.

Why do people keep saying this. This gets on my wick. Junior clubs aren't going to over take EOSFL clubs to go into a Lowland League. The Junior clubs will come in at tier 6. Absolute ludicrous

[Jason King]

Well then have a three way split at Tier 6.

[Auld Heid]

15 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

You're right, that proposed West division looks like a complete shitfest - there remains a big question mark that many of those teams would actually want to join it - I doubt sides like Glasgow Uni and Girvan would touch it with a bargepole for varying reasons; the Uni seem content to remain amateur and grandfather into the cup every year, and Girvan have just made the (Ayrshire-dominated) top tier of the Juniors for the first time and will be seeing a concomitant (yay...used it in a sentence!) upturn in exposure and crowd size.

Worth also bearing in mind Threave having already stepped up to the LL have retreated to the SoS to lick their wounds, and Saints did their level best to delay getting licensed to actively avoid the LL a few years ago. Newton haven't been close enough to promotion from the SoS that their attitude matters, which probably gives an accurate snapshot of where they are strength-wise.

Probably need to look further than the currently-licensed clubs to form something worthwhile. Stadiums are the main issue; some current junior grounds would undoubtedly cost a great deal to bring up to code, but the bar IS set quite low, and a good few are licenced already. The club licensing side of things is mainly paperwork and publishing codes of practice - I suspect all that holds some sides back from getting it done is the prospect of being shoehorned against their will into something along the lines of that list.

I like this post - pretty accurate there are clubs in leagues/levels not appropriate to their overall situation.  

[Jason King]

And with a pyramid all clubs will find their appropriate level over time.

[Hillonearth]

3 minutes ago, Jason King said:

And with a pyramid all clubs will find their appropriate level over time.

All well and good until you've actually got a club to run.

Let's say five biggish Junior clubs go SoS at once. With promotion relegation as it stands, they're effectively dooming themselves to half a decade traipsing down the A74/A701 losing money hand over fist and playing in front of virtually nobody until the last of them emerges blinking into the promised land of the LL.

Yeah, fair enough it would sort itself out eventually, but wouldn't it have been so much better if they'd adopted a coherent approach to the introduction of the pyramid in the first place?

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

Well then have a three way split at Tier 6.

Thats what I said ages ago. Even came up with a way to do it

[Jason King]

29 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

All well and good until you've actually got a club to run.

Let's say five biggish Junior clubs go SoS at once. With promotion relegation as it stands, they're effectively dooming themselves to half a decade traipsing down the A74/A701 losing money hand over fist and playing in front of virtually nobody until the last of them emerges blinking into the promised land of the LL.

Yeah, fair enough it would sort itself out eventually, but wouldn't it have been so much better if they'd adopted a coherent approach to the introduction of the pyramid in the first place?

...and why should Junior clubs be treated differently? Sitting on their hands at the implementation of the pyramid doesn't mean they should automatically be allowed to jump the queue. Its the clubs that need to lead on the pyramid, allowing the SJFA to speak for them is clearly a mistake.

[Hillonearth]

11 minutes ago, Jason King said:

...and why should Junior clubs be treated differently? Sitting on their hands at the implementation of the pyramid doesn't mean they should automatically be allowed to jump the queue. Its the clubs that need to lead on the pyramid, allowing the SJFA to speak for them is clearly a mistake.

Aaannnnd full circle...

As has been repeated ad nauseam on this and other threads, although a great deal of blame can be laid at the feet of the SJFA for failing to engage with the process pre-LL, little if any can be lumped on the clubs themselves, who were presented with a fait accompli with six weeks' notice.

Might also be worth bearing in mind than the "queue" involved in the current status quo seems to contain a hell of a lot of sides that don't seem to be waiting for this particular bus - witness St Cuthberts delaying licensing until after the cutoff for promotion and Wigtown frantically throwing the league last season to avoid going up. In effect, as things stand at the moment in the SoS we've got a "queue" with a logjam of a full division of sides either unwilling to or incapable of stepping up.

 

 

 

[Goalie Hamish]

4 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Aaannnnd full circle...

As has been repeated ad nauseam on this and other threads, although a great deal of blame can be laid at the feet of the SJFA for failing to engage with the process pre-LL, little if any can be lumped on the clubs themselves, who were presented with a fait accompli with six weeks' notice.

Might also be worth bearing in mind than the "queue" involved in the current status quo seems to contain a hell of a lot of sides that don't seem to be waiting for this particular bus - witness St Cuthberts delaying licensing until after the cutoff for promotion and Wigtown frantically throwing the league last season to avoid going up. In effect, as things stand at the moment in the SoS we've got a "queue" with a logjam of a full division of sides either unwilling to or incapable of stepping up.

 

 

 

Some of these licenced clubs in the EOS and SOS dont want to be in the Lowland League, they have a licence to enter the Scottish Cup thats it. There wont be many clubs to leapfrog as another poster claims. Sure give them the chance to join a new set-up but I dont see Glasgow University or Newton Stewart rushing to join a West Lowland League as they know they would be completely out of their depth.

[Craig fae the Vale]

At this point in time, you have Glasgow University playing games in an Amateur league in an empty 10000 seat stadium 20 miles away from their "normal" ground in order to play 1 or 2 Scottish Cup games per season. Obviously their situation is a little different from most with money not really coming into it for them.

This to me highlights a flaw in the licensing system. It has a lot of benefits, but definitely needs a bit of refinement to make sense to the majority

[Jason King]

2 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Aaannnnd full circle...

As has been repeated ad nauseam on this and other threads, although a great deal of blame can be laid at the feet of the SJFA for failing to engage with the process pre-LL, little if any can be lumped on the clubs themselves, who were presented with a fait accompli with six weeks' notice.

Its not full circle though is it - the fact remains that there is a LL with teams in it who managed to engage with the process. Junior clubs didn't and whilst there is some blame lying at the feet of the SJFA there is also equal culpability with the clubs. Tom Johnston is a great bogeyman for the Junior game - "its all the fault of the SJFA" is the continual cry and its a complete nonsense. Do you think Manchester United are sitting waiting to see if a full European Superleague will be introduced or Derby County are sitting waiting for the EFL to tell them everything? Of course they aren't but Junior clubs and junior club supporters just throw it out on a repeated basis to excuse having to make any sort of innovative decision for this level. They/We  have been blinded by the arrant nonsense that somehow Junior football is different from the senior leagues.  

NEWSFLASH - it isn't, its still football.  Benburb play the same game as BSC Glasgow who play the same game as Arbroath who play the same game as Celtic who play the same game as Huddersfield Town who play the same game as Manchester City who play the same game as PSG who play the same game as Vale of Leven. The level doesn't matter to most people except those seemingly stuck in a 1950s timewarp and crowds of thousands at every game and 60000 or so at the Junior Cup final.

Those days are gone.

They aren't coming back.

Clubs who have been happy to stagnate, and yes I include the Bens in that, and who couldn't see the bigger picture coming  have been bypassed by the likes of EduSport and East Kilbride and to me this is mainly down to their own short-sightedness and their cupidity for competitions that are dwarfed by the rewards potentially on offer in the pyramid.

 

[Arthurlie1981]

Its not full circle though is it - the fact remains that there is a LL with teams in it who managed to engage with the process. Junior clubs didn't and whilst there is some blame lying at the feet of the SJFA there is also equal culpability with the clubs. Tom Johnston is a great bogeyman for the Junior game - "its all the fault of the SJFA" is the continual cry and its a complete nonsense. Do you think Manchester United are sitting waiting to see if a full European Superleague will be introduced or Derby County are sitting waiting for the EFL to tell them everything? Of course they aren't but Junior clubs and junior club supporters just throw it out on a repeated basis to excuse having to make any sort of innovative decision for this level. They/We  have been blinded by the arrant nonsense that somehow Junior football is different from the senior leagues.  
NEWSFLASH - it isn't, its still football.  Benburb play the same game as BSC Glasgow who play the same game as Arbroath who play the same game as Celtic who play the same game as Huddersfield Town who play the same game as Manchester City who play the same game as PSG who play the same game as Vale of Leven. The level doesn't matter to most people except those seemingly stuck in a 1950s timewarp and crowds of thousands at every game and 60000 or so at the Junior Cup final.
Those days are gone.
They aren't coming back.
Clubs who have been happy to stagnate, and yes I include the Bens in that, and who couldn't see the bigger picture coming  have been bypassed by the likes of EduSport and East Kilbride and to me this is mainly down to their own short-sightedness and their cupidity for competitions that are dwarfed by the rewards potentially on offer in the pyramid.
 

I can certainly talk for my club as I was involved with the discussions at the time. It’s no where near as straight forward as you claim it was. The SFA presented a yes/no question to the clubs with no firm proposal of what was happening while gladly talking to the EoSL & HFL in a more in-depth way. Clubs were not provided with the level of detail they required and were not given a proper length of time to discuss with members who required more information.

The SFA wanted a quick and easy pyramid (nothing wrong with that) and imo chose the east, south and highland leagues to do that.

On another note we actually answered yes to the question about if we were interested in joining the pyramid. But received no further information from the SFA. If they really wanted junior clubs they certainly didn’t act like it. I think Mr Regan had no real understanding of the non league set up in Scotland and picked the 3 senior leagues.

There is blame on both the SFA & SJFA but the clubs were left in limbo and had to make decisions without the proper information.

[calmac25]

All well and good until you've actually got a club to run.
Let's say five biggish Junior clubs go SoS at once. With promotion relegation as it stands, they're effectively dooming themselves to half a decade traipsing down the A74/A701 losing money hand over fist and playing in front of virtually nobody until the last of them emerges blinking into the promised land of the LL.
Yeah, fair enough it would sort itself out eventually, but wouldn't it have been so much better if they'd adopted a coherent approach to the introduction of the pyramid in the first place?

You'd have to hope/imagine that the lowland league would be open to change and increase movement between the leagues if the strength was there and would be key to negotiating any junior involvement.

If 5 big juniors moved to the SoS then the following year there would be more and in 5-10 years the set up would be little different to what it is now

[stanley]

I think we need to move past the discussion of who is to blame for the way the pyramid was implemented (personally, I don't think any one party is to blame; there is no easy answer and it's a combination of many factors) and find a way to move forward into an integrated pyramid set-up.