rednblack Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Looked through a few myself recently and in early 2000s we got 975 and just over 1000 for west of Scotland 2nd and 3rd round ties. Three or four similar crowds in the early 2000s at random games where you wouldn't expect such crowds. Given the whole of Scottish football crowds have slipped i don't think anyone can have to much of a go at junior football for the dip. Junior football by nowadays standards still pull in decent crowds just not as regular and not so much early rounds of cups like even 15 years ago. It's more a good increase when it comes to quarters onwards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted July 16, 2017 Author Share Posted July 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, Sunrise said: I was reading the Cumbernauld United programme from our Scottish Junior Cup match in 1996-97 - before my time really as in my defense I was 6/7 - they note the previous round (second round) they won at Armadale in front of 850. Were Armadale a decent side at the time? I imagine that would be a strong crowd for any junior side before the semi-finals now (even the last four) - I'm aware this post risks going into crowd comparisons again... Armadale have always been able to draw in decent crowds for big matches, but they have never really been amongst the big hitters on the pitch in modern times ie post 1950's, in fact they have rarely featured in the top division since 1997-98 when they were relegated from the old East Region Division One. The potential is still there though if they get their act together, but they're kinda at a low ebb at the moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinto Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 IMHO Scottish Junior football will never progress until they raise the standards of the 'offer' on match days. For example I watched Scone Thistle v Benburb in a Scottish Junior Cup match a couple of seasons back and the game was played effectively on a public park adjacent to a school. There was cover whatsoever and no match day programme on the day. They did however provide a complete set of officials and the club folk were friendly. The standard of play in the match was I thought very poor and the result was 1-1. Now guys in the 21st century is this acceptable ?. To progress all the clubs need to view what they are charging an admission for and a minimum standard must be set. Money from the top of the Pyramid must come downwards and help fund improvements at the lower levels including the Juniors. A relatively small amount of money targeted for ground improvements would go a long way. You need people who run the organisation who will have vision on how they can improve things. This means identifying shortcomings and putting a big effort into lobbying the SFA and Business's to sell the product. I acknowledge there are many wonderful people in Junior football who put a great effort in on behalf of their clubs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rednblack Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 IMHO Scottish Junior football will never progress until they raise the standards of the 'offer' on match days. For example I watched Scone Thistle v Benburb in a Scottish Junior Cup match a couple of seasons back and the game was played effectively on a public park adjacent to a school. There was cover whatsoever and no match day programme on the day. They did however provide a complete set of officials and the club folk were friendly. The standard of play in the match was I thought very poor and the result was 1-1. Now guys in the 21st century is this acceptable ?. To progress all the clubs need to view what they are charging an admission for and a minimum standard must be set. Money from the top of the Pyramid must come downwards and help fund improvements at the lower levels including the Juniors. A relatively small amount of money targeted for ground improvements would go a long way. You need people who run the organisation who will have vision on how they can improve things. This means identifying shortcomings and putting a big effort into lobbying the SFA and Business's to sell the product. I acknowledge there are many wonderful people in Junior football who put a great effort in on behalf of their clubs. Why is it not acceptable. When you go to an amateur game or lower level junior game you know what you are getting, I certainly do. I know facilities will be basic, I know it's not champions league football. I know it's not even going to be good non league level i don't care. Not everywhere can have cover or good standard of play or programmes . As long as i get a decent welcome and a bit of entertainment for my money i go away happy. This is the problem some people have there head in the clouds and expect this and that all the way down the grade. Clubs with little facilities and not playing even to a good non league standard should be applauded not criticised for keeping there local clubs going and providing at least an option of local grass roots football. You say no match programme big deal that's a bonus not a necessity for a good match experience. Said home club you mentioned have a very good social media presence, film games, lots of young players being given a chance to play football, decent sponsorship and obviously have a place in the local area I've always been impressed by them yet they get it the neck from a guy down in englandshire like yourself for having no match programme and no cover and no playing like real madrid of the non league world. Honestly give them and teams like them a break ffs. Everyone has there place not everyone can have all the bells and whistles as a non league club, all this pie in the sky rubbish about a pyramid and money filtering down to teams like one you mentioned really hmm. Just let them be, let them do there thing, the boys will enjoy the football, the club will generate there own money and provide what they do for there local area that's what it's all about at the end of the day.Team like you mention are are what they are and should be applauded and respected for what they do and what they do offer as it would be easy just to not bother and not provide anything to the local area. Btw club you mentioned are oldest junior side in perthshire and have been out the game in the past and came back from the dead something else they should be applauded for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, tinto said: IMHO Scottish Junior football will never progress until they raise the standards of the 'offer' on match days. For example I watched Scone Thistle v Benburb in a Scottish Junior Cup match a couple of seasons back and the game was played effectively on a public park adjacent to a school. There was cover whatsoever and no match day programme on the day. They did however provide a complete set of officials and the club folk were friendly. The standard of play in the match was I thought very poor and the result was 1-1. Now guys in the 21st century is this acceptable ?. To progress all the clubs need to view what they are charging an admission for and a minimum standard must be set. Money from the top of the Pyramid must come downwards and help fund improvements at the lower levels including the Juniors. A relatively small amount of money targeted for ground improvements would go a long way. You need people who run the organisation who will have vision on how they can improve things. This means identifying shortcomings and putting a big effort into lobbying the SFA and Business's to sell the product. I acknowledge there are many wonderful people in Junior football who put a great effort in on behalf of their clubs. Different strokes for different folks I suppose - I've been to Scone a couple of times and I liked it. Given the size of the place and the crowds they're likely to attract it's perfectly adequate. The older incarnation of the club was one where one guy did more or less everything, and when he passed away they went into abeyance for a season or two. Although there's no cover, it's not like it's massively exposed to the elements...even though it's a fairly well to do area, putting up cover would raise several problems for them; what with planning permission and the likelihood of attracting vandals or al fresco drinkers to the park. Places like that, it's quite simple - if the weather looks sketchy, take a brolly... Some people feel a programme's an essentail prerequisite of a game - it's really not, and I'm speaking as a programme editor! It's down to the simple fact that some clubs don't have someone capable of putting one together, and at least we're not in the farcical situation of some leagues in England who are forced to produce one with X amount of pages of colour adverts to satisfy league sponsors that virtually no-one's going to read as crowds are in such low double figures. For what it's worth again you must have caught them on an off-day, because Scone are regular issuers normally. At least you said the people involved were friendly - personally I'd rather have that any day of the week rather than a sparkling new ground with a welcome like one you'd get from a doberman at a scrapyard... Edited July 17, 2017 by Hillonearth 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Robb09 said: the futures bleak regardless of any pyramids and reconstruction if we're going to start charging for preseason friendlies. If you're a semi pro club you probably have wages to pay, training facilities to rent (if not using the local public park), water and electricity rates to pay - do you ask the players to play for free until competitive games begin (I know some clubs do a specific pre-season training wage...) and ask all those owed money to wait until August? Junior clubs are businesses and IMO it is the reluctance to acknowledge that that gives the grade a bleak future. It's bargain basement as it is for supporters yet the costs are high and climbing. If you want free football, go watch amateur. Edited July 17, 2017 by cmontheloknow 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, rednblack said: Everyone has there place not everyone can have all the bells and whistles as a non league club, all this pie in the sky rubbish about a pyramid and money filtering down to teams like one you mentioned really hmm. The whole point of a Pyramid of course is that every club has a place and finds its natural level, that’s generally how Junior football operates apart from the fact you cannot progress once you win the top division and you cannot be relegated if you hit bottom of the bottom division, so finding your natural place in football isn’t always possible. With a proper Pyramid, then of course it’s possible for a club to start at the very bottom on a roped off pitch in local football and progress and improve to higher levels as the seasons pass improving facilities as they go. Currently that isn’t possible unless you leaves leagues and apply to move to others, it’s a nonsense. Have been to Scone Thistle, it’s basic but at the end of the day they have their place and combining all non-league’s into the one Pyramid system won’t change anything at all for Scone, although it might open up access to various income streams in future maybe to help them improve facilities (let's face it, clubs get zero from the SJFA). Every single club has a place in a Pyramid, that’s the whole point. what's "pie in the sky" about that? Edited July 17, 2017 by Burnie_man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinto Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Good stuff guys, thanks for your viewpoints. As they say 'Lets make sure no Scone is unturned' in the pursuit of improving Scottish Junior fitba' !!. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasy23 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 the futures bleak regardless of any pyramids and reconstruction if we're going to start charging for preseason friendlies. We get issued with a full set of match officials for all our home friendlies whether we ask for them or not, that's £110 per game now. 4 sets for our tourney at the weekend were £440. As the host club are we supposed to just shrug our shoulders and swallow that cost? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 26 minutes ago, peasy23 said: We get issued with a full set of match officials for all our home friendlies whether we ask for them or not, that's £110 per game now. 4 sets for our tourney at the weekend were £440. As the host club are we supposed to just shrug our shoulders and swallow that cost? I think almost all clubs will charge at least something to offset costs these days - obviously anyone who charges full whack at this time of the year is taking the piss, but what's a couple of quid if it helps pay for the ref etc? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasy23 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I think almost all clubs will charge at least something to offset costs these days - obviously anyone who charges full whack at this time of the year is taking the piss, but what's a couple of quid if it helps pay for the ref etc? We charged £5 and £3 per day at the weekend, very few grumbles and a lot of folk did watch the two matches each day.Wednesday night and Saturday will be a flat rate £2 per adult. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wile E Coyote Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 9 hours ago, rednblack said: Why is it not acceptable. When you go to an amateur game or lower level junior game you know what you are getting, I certainly do. I know facilities will be basic, I know it's not champions league football. I know it's not even going to be good non league level i don't care. Not everywhere can have cover or good standard of play or programmes . As long as i get a decent welcome and a bit of entertainment for my money i go away happy. This is the problem some people have there head in the clouds and expect this and that all the way down the grade. Clubs with little facilities and not playing even to a good non league standard should be applauded not criticised for keeping there local clubs going and providing at least an option of local grass roots football. You say no match programme big deal that's a bonus not a necessity for a good match experience. Said home club you mentioned have a very good social media presence, film games, lots of young players being given a chance to play football, decent sponsorship and obviously have a place in the local area I've always been impressed by them yet they get it the neck from a guy down in englandshire like yourself for having no match programme and no cover and no playing like real madrid of the non league world. Honestly give them and teams like them a break ffs. Everyone has there place not everyone can have all the bells and whistles as a non league club, all this pie in the sky rubbish about a pyramid and money filtering down to teams like one you mentioned really hmm. Just let them be, let them do there thing, the boys will enjoy the football, the club will generate there own money and provide what they do for there local area that's what it's all about at the end of the day.Team like you mention are are what they are and should be applauded and respected for what they do and what they do offer as it would be easy just to not bother and not provide anything to the local area. Btw club you mentioned are oldest junior side in perthshire and have been out the game in the past and came back from the dead something else they should be applauded for. I agree with every word of this post and feel strange because I am agreeing with rednback 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinto Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I accept that the Scone guys work hard and do their best under often difficult circumstances. I had heard about the famous pies so forewent my lunch. Unfortunately when I went for the pie at half time they had sold out. Just my luck !!. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Always interesting to read how others view the Junior experience. The programme part is a hard one. I always regarded the programme editors as a bit geeky (not a dig btw). Firstly you need serious time and secondly you do need to be a bit knowledgeable, not only about your own club but every other club you play. You couldn't really bring out a programme in six months time for say a game against Shettleston and have Cotter marked down as the Town manager!!! Of the four programmes i bought at Junior games last season i'd put Larkhall first followed by Pollok, Petershill and St Roch's in that order. Btw, do teams make any money out of programmes. Seems like a lot of effort for a small reward, if any. Last season's St Roch's v Kilwinning Rangers programme is a bit of a collectors item since we only do a programme about once every five years. Any geeky Candy fans out there? The jobs yours. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinto Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I provided a programme for Benburb FC. My son provided them with a website from around 2003. the reason we got involved was because the club was in dire straights and to their credit the then committee set about a 'Mission Impossible' plan to save the club. To their enormous credit they succeeded. Producing a programme does take effort and the financial return at the gate is never going to offset the cost of producing them. However I have always believed that it is important to provide people coming to watch your club with a good match day experience and a programme can be a good part of that. . One of the first programmes we produced was against Clydebank soon after they reformed and sold over 100 at the game. Indirectly programmes can benefit. We asked Sir Alex Ferguson for help in saving the club and he responded big time in helping save the club he supported in his boyhood. He provided the odd article for the programme and even visited the club.one evening to meet the officials. There were a number of exile fans who also supported the club and efforts to save it. I got involved on a few occasions in selling the programmes at the gate when I was fortunate enough to see a match and calculated that 2 out of 3 supporters purchased. Going back to the Scone experience I would say Scone are probably typical of many Junior Clubs. Having watched Junior football in the 1950's and comparing it to now it is difficult to see any great progress except that the relative playing standards have gone backwards. So perhaps the thread title should be 'Back to the Future' !!. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Glenconner said: Always interesting to read how others view the Junior experience. The programme part is a hard one. I always regarded the programme editors as a bit geeky (not a dig btw). Firstly you need serious time and secondly you do need to be a bit knowledgeable, not only about your own club but every other club you play. You couldn't really bring out a programme in six months time for say a game against Shettleston and have Cotter marked down as the Town manager!!! Of the four programmes i bought at Junior games last season i'd put Larkhall first followed by Pollok, Petershill and St Roch's in that order. Btw, do teams make any money out of programmes. Seems like a lot of effort for a small reward, if any. Last season's St Roch's v Kilwinning Rangers programme is a bit of a collectors item since we only do a programme about once every five years. Any geeky Candy fans out there? The jobs yours. Once you've got the template set up, it takes a lot less time than you'd think if you're OK with IT- couple of hours to pull together a new issue maybe? If you're doing a 28 pager, at least 12 pages of that are static - ads, club history and so on - and quite a lot of the rest is C&P from online - league tables, fixtures, match reports etc. You don't really need encyclopedic knowledge of the team you're playing - with a few notable exceptions, you can find enough info online to get by. It's the actual printing that takes the time - even then you can leave it and do something else. The only one that took serious time for me last season was one I did for Lochee Harp as a favour when we played them in the Junior Cup, and that was because I was doing one from scratch for a club I didn't know much about previously. I am however enough of a geek that I went along to the Roch v Kilwinning game last season firstly because not much else was on that day and secondly because I didn't have a programme from there! From what I heard they don't think they'll repeat the experiment which is a shame because it was a decent effort. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreghorn Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Junior football has done well to survive in an age where ther are so many alternatives. It us comprised of diehards who will attend each week together with some who will attend the big matches and a few others each season. We are all aware that the best clubs outside the SFL are in the top divisions of the East, West Junior and the Highland League. The Lowland League is not there yet but will get there as more and more junior clubs take the jump. But what are they joining and why? The only real reason is to gain admission by this route to the SFL and the chance of playing Berwick Rangers or Brechin City 4 times a season. Most of these aspiring club owners also see their name in lights with their results appearing on BBC Sport. Financially there is little to be gained. Poor crowds, more expense and dull unattractive fixtures await them. For those that remain junior their is still a very good well supported product to sell. It just has to be packaged better. This includes full season fixture lists. If English non league clubs can arrange these for leagues comprising 24 clubs, therefore 46 games per season plus involvement in the FA Cup, FA Vase and local trophies why can't the Juniors do the same at least in the top divisions of each region. These English Leagues are also completed by the end of April! The major factor preventing this here is the absence of ground improvements, especially to the state of our pitches and the absence of floodlights. This means that Scottish Cup ties and replays are frequently postponed causing cancellation of league games and leaving some teams with a backlog of 9 or 10 fixtures to make up which, without floodlights, cannot take place until mid April. To progress therefore we have to build our leagues with promotions not only depending on league performance but also on clubs meeting specified ground criteria, such as the provision of floodlights. Once specified clubs should be given a reasonable time to bring their facilities up to scratch, perhaps 3 years. It is possible and many clubs already recognise the importance of better facilities enabling the community to become involved in both participating and help raise the necessary funding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Dreghorn said: Junior football has done well to survive in an age where ther are so many alternatives. It us comprised of diehards who will attend each week together with some who will attend the big matches and a few others each season. We are all aware that the best clubs outside the SFL are in the top divisions of the East, West Junior and the Highland League. The Lowland League is not there yet but will get there as more and more junior clubs take the jump. But what are they joining and why? The only real reason is to gain admission by this route to the SFL and the chance of playing Berwick Rangers or Brechin City 4 times a season. Most of these aspiring club owners also see their name in lights with their results appearing on BBC Sport. Financially there is little to be gained. Poor crowds, more expense and dull unattractive fixtures await them. For those that remain junior their is still a very good well supported product to sell. It just has to be packaged better. This includes full season fixture lists. If English non league clubs can arrange these for leagues comprising 24 clubs, therefore 46 games per season plus involvement in the FA Cup, FA Vase and local trophies why can't the Juniors do the same at least in the top divisions of each region. These English Leagues are also completed by the end of April! The major factor preventing this here is the absence of ground improvements, especially to the state of our pitches and the absence of floodlights. This means that Scottish Cup ties and replays are frequently postponed causing cancellation of league games and leaving some teams with a backlog of 9 or 10 fixtures to make up which, without floodlights, cannot take place until mid April. To progress therefore we have to build our leagues with promotions not only depending on league performance but also on clubs meeting specified ground criteria, such as the provision of floodlights. Once specified clubs should be given a reasonable time to bring their facilities up to scratch, perhaps 3 years. It is possible and many clubs already recognise the importance of better facilities enabling the community to become involved in both participating and help raise the necessary funding. I've got a better idea, bear with me on this, how about having a non-league structure where ALL clubs are involved with no artificial boundaries, everyone is just a football club and the higher up the structure you go then the more demands there are on improving facilities. A bit like England in fact....... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinto Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I rate the Dreghorn post as excellent and agree entirely with Burnieman. A shake up is long overdue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mantis Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dreghorn said: Financially there is little to be gained. Poor crowds, more expense and dull unattractive fixtures await them. But we're all raking it in off SFA subsidies right? According to most Junior posters. Who says the fixtures are dull and unattractive? This is straight out of the BankiesAlive and Isa Goudie book of prejudices well argued post otherwise. Edit- plenty evidence to suggest the LL has overtaken the HFL already. Mainly because the standard in the HFL has plummeted since 1994. Edited July 18, 2017 by The Mantis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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