Junior football, what is the future?

[TheGothClock]

I reckon that's an important point - the simple fact is that eventual accession to the SPFL isn't all that appealing. Everyone harps on about Ross County as the touchstone of what can be achieved, but no-one ever mentions your Elgins, Annans and Peterheads who have achieved league status and have morphed into just what Scotland needed...yet more wee provincial sides seemingly destined to be permanent fixtures in the bottom league.
Barring a Mileson-esque sugar daddy writing the cheques - and remember how that ended - I reckon that's the level any junior side could hope to reach; the village and small-town teams like Talbot or Linlithgow just don't have the catchment areas to kick on to the next level - you can extend that to most of the current non-league seniors too; the likes of Innerleithen, Dalbeattie or Rosewell are way too small be able to support an SPFL side, and the likes of the Uni sides and boys' club offshoots are also unlikely to do so.
As for city teams, forget it - does Glasgow need another League side? Unlikely. Did Edinburgh? Ditto.
Probably the best placed current non-league side to potentially reach the next level are East Kilbride, coming as they do from a town of 75,000. Even they will be ultimately limited by the nature of the place though; EK's firmly a commuter town for Glasgow where people move to with allegiances already in place.
Scotland's a very different place from the likes of the USA where people tend to move somewhere and immediately go "Whoo! Go (insert name of local sports franchise) Maybe we should be more like them - it would make things a lot easier. [emoji4]

I'm not talking about franchise teams as per NFL I'm talking about small town teams that have been playing for decades and how they evolved to survive

[Shanner]

Some Junior fans on here have this bizarre outlook whereby The Juniors don't contribute the supposed "too many teams/ not enough fans" problem when actually they do, and in fact Junior football is far more densely populated with teams (if not supporters, sadly) than the senior grade in it's traditional hotbed areas.

A few of those elevating themselves a level or two won't throw the balance of Scottish football out of kilter - and it would only ever be a select few, as most Junior sides would never get near the current 4th tier anyway.  

Also, what is actually wrong with a team 1) being provincial or 2) finding their natural level in the 3rd tier or whatever?  Following a team that wins hee-haw is the bread and butter of most football fans and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Shanner

[Hillonearth]

Just now, Shanner said:

Some Junior fans on here have this bizarre outlook whereby The Juniors don't contribute the supposed "too many teams/ not enough fans" problem when actually they do, and in fact Junior football is far more densely populated with teams than the senior grade in it's traditional hotbed areas.

A few of those elevating themselves a level or two won't throw the balance of Scottish football out of kilter - and it would only ever be a select few, as most Junior sides would never get near the current 4th tier anyway.  

Also, what is actually wrong with a team 1) being provincial or 2) finding their natural level in the 3rd tier or whatever?  Following a team that wins hee-haw is the bread and butter of most football fans. 

Granted - my points were that the likelihood of "doing a Ross County" is vanishingly small for any current non-league side, and the best nearly all could aspire to is to swap places with one of the current crop of sides who have joined the league and "found their level" by taking root in League 2.

[HTG]

I just don't get some of the points being made on here. Ok, Edinburgh City replacing East Stirling doesn't change the world in the grand scheme of things. But it changes things for Edinburgh City and East Stirling. It reflects the ups and downs of football throughthe league structures. 

Every club should have that opportunity surely? If folk are so scathing of the change of circumstances for the 2 clubs mentioned, what is it that's different when we consider promotion and relegation in the current structure. Why bother relegating Troon and promoting Girvan? What's the point really?  Makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. f**k it - let Girvan stay where they are and enjoy being the big fish in their pond battering their head off the ceiling they've reached. 

Folk can argue about the model but anyone who thinks clubs shouldn't have the right in principle to advance based on their ability to meet the standards and conditions appropriate to the next level is living in a parallel universe. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 hours ago, HTG said:

I just don't get some of the points being made on here. Ok, Edinburgh City replacing East Stirling doesn't change the world in the grand scheme of things. But it changes things for Edinburgh City and East Stirling. It reflects the ups and downs of football throughthe league structures. 

Every club should have that opportunity surely? If folk are so scathing of the change of circumstances for the 2 clubs mentioned, what is it that's different when we consider promotion and relegation in the current structure. Why bother relegating Troon and promoting Girvan? What's the point really?  Makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. f**k it - let Girvan stay where they are and enjoy being the big fish in their pond battering their head off the ceiling they've reached. 

Folk can argue about the model but anyone who thinks clubs shouldn't have the right in principle to advance based on their ability to meet the standards and conditions appropriate to the next level is living in a parallel universe. 

Everybody does.  They can go join the East of Scotland league

[Che Dail]

11 hours ago, HTG said:

I just don't get some of the points being made on here. Ok, Edinburgh City replacing East Stirling doesn't change the world in the grand scheme of things. But it changes things for Edinburgh City and East Stirling. It reflects the ups and downs of football throughthe league structures. 

Every club should have that opportunity surely? If folk are so scathing of the change of circumstances for the 2 clubs mentioned, what is it that's different when we consider promotion and relegation in the current structure. Why bother relegating Troon and promoting Girvan? What's the point really?  Makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. f**k it - let Girvan stay where they are and enjoy being the big fish in their pond battering their head off the ceiling they've reached. 

Folk can argue about the model but anyone who thinks clubs shouldn't have the right in principle to advance based on their ability to meet the standards and conditions appropriate to the next level is living in a parallel universe. 

Yes - and it's not just clubs, it's also about getting players and coaches at the appropriate level based on their abilities.  

At the moment there are better players at some Junior clubs than in League 2.  For some it's more attractive to play at this grade simply because they don't want to travel and can spend more time with family or focus time on their professional life / career outside football. Others will clear more money (playing a lower grade of football) and that's a motivating factor. 

So the Senior leagues are not as competitive as they should be because the best players aren't in it, and ultimately that's not healthy for the game at the top level. 

Below the top two pro leagues it should be feasible / viable for the best local players to be playing at the best local club. 

In the top two leagues it's a job / career, which is different.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Che Dail

[lowenan]

On 10.7.2017 at 22:59, Che Dail said:

Do clubs outwith the top two divisions travel long distances, I.e over 2hrs? According to website it is regional below that at 2nd division  (fair play league, 56 clubs in 4 groups) then 12 regional sections below that (3rd division split north / south). 

I noticed that reserve teams can play in 2nd division also.

The system in 2017/18 is 16 teams in the Premier League, and 16 teams in the Championship. 

On the third level it gets partly regionalised, to two groups of 14. They have paired the north with the east / south east in one group, and in the other there is the centre of the country, the west coast (southwest of the centre), and the south. 

On the fourth level there are six groups of 14. Group 1 - south east towards the south, group 2 - east / south east, group 3 - south east, south and south west, group 4 - west coast, group 5 - centre to north of centre, group 6 - north + five teams from the south east. Meaning in group six of the fourth level you have matches where there are 1683 km between the teams. Several of the groups have ten hour drives to get to a stadium.

Level 5 is fully regionalised with 24 groups. The regions with most people have 2 or 3 groups, while the smallest populated even share a group at this level. 

[Che Dail]

7 hours ago, lowenan said:

Meaning in group six of the fourth level you have matches where there are 1683 km between the teams. Several of the groups have ten hour drives to get to a stadium.

Erm... Something lost in translation with the definition of 'regional'  - travel time is equivalent to Elgin to Oxford!

Mind you, by comparison if Oslo (thro Sweden) to Tromso is a 22 hr drive - the 10hr derby fixture is a walk in the park! 

Thanks for the info btw, good feedback.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Che Dail

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Erm... Something lost in translation with the definition of 'regional'  - travel time is equivalent to Elgin to Oxford!

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Che Dail

[HTG]

9 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Everybody does.  They can go join the East of Scotland league

That's no response at all now is it. Let's just move the glass ceiling then and say f**k the east premier teams.  Sauchie won their league last season but let's not bother having any promotion or relegation structure. Sauchie cantake themselves to the EoS league (if they'll have them).

And the "if they'll have them" element is key. Kelty didn't go there on merit. They had to apply. Do you think it's sensible to have an entire structure which bases itself in applications rather than merit?  

How do you think Glenafton would have fared with an application to the EoS League? How do you think 8 applications would have been received? 

"Everybody does" is lazy, simplistic and fundamentally not true. 

I understand that a lot of folk think the juniors should continue to sit apart from the rest of the football world. Maybe one day soon that vision will transfer into meaningful sponsorship for their flagship trophy again. Or maybe not. 

 

[Sunrise]

At last month's West Region AGM there was a particular club official near the front - I'm not certain which club he belonged to - advocating a return to the Ayrshire and Central leagues...! Just one mindset thing you are up against for bringing change about. Though it must be remembered, league reconstruction was passed 49-12.

Ambition doesn't just equate to playing as high a level as possible - look, for instance, at what third-tier St Roch's do off the park in local school through homework clubs, and Clydebank's work with local Syrian refugees - but methinks a few here just don't want to get rid of the term "junior". Clearly at the moment the South of Scotland League is an unsatisfactory route for the West sides however.

On 7/10/2017 at 22:16, gogsy said:

No idea why you think that.

Must have confused you for one of the Lowland-EOS-ers gogsy, my mistake.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Sunrise

[Burnie_man]

46 minutes ago, Sunrise said:

At last month's West Region AGM there was a particular club official near the front - I'm not certain which club he belonged to - advocating a return to the Ayrshire and Central leagues...

There is a similar mindset amongst a few clubs in Fife and Lothians.

The irony is that these Junior clubs who want to wind the clock back to the black & white days may actually be better served within a Pyramid as it could see a re-introduction of more localised divisions.

If we had a proper Pyramid, then we could still effectively have Ayrshire, Central, Lothian, Fife Leagues at the lower levels once you take on board Saturday Amateur clubs.  Local level - District level – Regional level – National level, that’s your four main tiers of football and there’s a place for everyone within that. 

[archieb]

2 hours ago, Sunrise said:

At last month's West Region AGM there was a particular club official near the front - I'm not certain which club he belonged to - advocating a return to the Ayrshire and Central leagues...!

Wasn't at the AGM but I bet I know exactly who that was.

Probably the guy I called a "dinosaur" at the previous meeting when the motions were first discussed 

[Hillonearth]

2 hours ago, Sunrise said:

At last month's West Region AGM there was a particular club official near the front - I'm not certain which club he belonged to - advocating a return to the Ayrshire and Central leagues...! Just one mindset thing you are up against for bringing change about. Though it must be remembered, league reconstruction was passed 49-12.

Ambition doesn't just equate to playing as high a level as possible - look, for instance, at what third-tier St Roch's do off the park in local school through homework clubs, and Clydebank's work with local Syrian refugees - but methinks a few here just don't want to get rid of the term "junior". Clearly at the moment the South of Scotland League is an unsatisfactory route for the West sides however.

It's a difficult one as some of the old boys we're calling dinosaurs - and I'm as guilty of it as anyone sometimes - are probably the only thing keeping a minority of clubs going. Even the often glacial pace of change in the Juniors is probably too much for them, and they hanker after a time they feel they understood better.

I suspect a few of them view the introduction of a pyramid - if a fit-for-purpose one, especially over this side of the country ever comes to pass - in much the same way the real dinosaurs noticed the big rock in the sky that seemed to be gradually getting bigger...

 

[garrellburn]

2 hours ago, archieb said:

Wasn't at the AGM but I bet I know exactly who that was.

Probably the guy I called a "dinosaur" at the previous meeting when the motions were first discussed 

Sorry to tell you I got in with that one first, at a meeting a couple of years ago. But it was addressed to a different dinosaur, there is more than one within the hierarchy. They really are two of a kind though, from the same part of the world, and with similar background, that's enough hints.

[garrellburn]

On 12/07/2017 at 18:59, garrellburn said:

Sorry to tell you I got in with that one first, at a meeting a couple of years ago. But it was addressed to a different dinosaur, there is more than one within the hierarchy. They really are two of a kind though, from the same part of the world, and with similar background, that's enough hints.

One more hint, replace the word 'world' with South Lanarkshire.

[archieb]

2 hours ago, garrellburn said:

One more hint, replace the word 'world' with South Lanarkshire.

Don't worry I'd already worked out exactly who the brontosaurus twins are  & I expect most of P&B has too.

[tinto]

Scottish Junior Football was great in its day. However it does need to change and merge within a Pyramid system. From my observation from afar it has barely moved forward in the last 20 years and seems to be bouncing along the bottom. The clubs as well as the association officials are as much to blame as each other.

The only way change will come is from the SFA coming up with a blueprint which means all clubs are given equal opportunities to advance at their respective levels.

Until such time it will remain a mickey mouse operation. That said I look forward to taking in a few games in a few weeks time especially the Govan derby between the Bens and the Ants.

[Glenconner]

1 hour ago, tinto said:

Scottish Junior Football was great in its day.  

Yeh and the only people who remember it have a fee bus pass from the Scottish Government.

[rednblack]

See this is the thing the post two above ah it was great in the day, it was but then he says he will still go now and take a few games in. Now is that for nostalgia sake or something and really he thinks it's absolute rubbish ?

Make no mistake about it junior football is still a cracking grade of football when you boil it down to the actual game itself and what it serves up and it value for money. Still having that in this day in age is no easy feat.
Yes it needs more change yes it needs better leadership but when you have the basics going for you then you will always have something to work with and worth keeping.