The DUP

[LongTimeLurker]

On 20/06/2021 at 10:58, Jacksgranda said:

Very high risk strategy, imho....

Guess there can't have been any significant aggro on the 12th given the absence of recent posts from the usual suspects. Paul Givan's still in the job so looks like Jeffrey Donaldson was stuck with him for now after all and the stuff about him having to resign was mainly just a way to make the pecking order crystal clear.

[Jacksgranda]

24 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Guess there can't have been any significant aggro on the 12th given the absence of recent posts from the usual suspects. Paul Givan's still in the job so looks like Jeffrey Donaldson was stuck with him for now after all and the stuff about him having to resign was mainly just a way to make the pecking order crystal clear.

No aggro whatsoever. 

Apart from the poor lad who ended up in hospital with 40% burns after setting himself on fire at a bonfire - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/twelfth/young-man-burnt-on-face-and-body-at-ballysillan-bonfire-40643486.html

[BlueBear]

On 02/07/2021 at 22:28, GordonS said:

I see we're at the not prosecuting murderers again.

That'll go well.

I see we're still putting terrorists in government. 

That'll go well. 

[tamthebam]

5 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

No aggro whatsoever. 

Apart from the poor lad who ended up in hospital with 40% burns after setting himself on fire at a bonfire - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/twelfth/young-man-burnt-on-face-and-body-at-ballysillan-bonfire-40643486.html

Was he called Peter Pallet?

[The Golden God]

I see we're at the not prosecuting murderers again.
That'll go well.

So it’s alright to kill people if you’re a solider and wearing a uniform but not if you’re wearing a mask.

I agree that the amnesty is completely ridiculous but if it does happen you can’t just pick and choose and in my mind a British army soldier shooting an un armed civilian in the back is just about as bad a crime as you’ll see.

[welshbairn]

In two minds about this, not sure about the value of jailing a 70 year old for what they did as a teenage squaddie when the officers always get off scot free. If there's an amnesty it should definitely apply to paramilitaries too though.

Edited July 15, 2021 by welshbairn

[Jacksgranda]

3 hours ago, The Golden God said:

 

So it’s alright to kill people if you’re a solider and wearing a uniform but not if you’re wearing a mask.

I agree that the amnesty is completely ridiculous but if it does happen you can’t just pick and choose and in my mind a British army soldier shooting an un armed civilian in the back is just about as bad a crime as you’ll see.

 

None of the NI parties are in favour of an amnesty (albeit probably for different reasons).

Anybody who broke the law should be investigated, obviously it's easier to investigate security force personnell as, by and large, it's easier to establish where they were on any given date, unlike paramilitaries who didn't keep records. Well, maybe the IRA did as they ran a fairly sophisticated operation, I doubt the loyalist paramilitaries could write a message list, far less keep hidden a list of where their members were at and what they were up to.

However, just because it's easier (to investigate the security forces) it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. The likelihood of a paramilitary being prosecuted for say La Mon, Bloody Friday, Loughinisland, Articlave, Claudy etc etc is so remote as to be remotest thing ever. And it was the paramilitaries who committed the vast amount of murders.

I think the amnesty is to stop security force double/triple agents being exposed.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Jacksgranda
Sleppnig

[BlueBear]

A few I ran away sympathisers breaking cover. 

Why are these c***s in government? 

[The Golden God]

A few I ran away sympathisers breaking cover. 
Why are these c***s in government? 

What?

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, The Golden God said:

 

So it’s alright to kill people if you’re a solider and wearing a uniform but not if you’re wearing a mask.

I agree that the amnesty is completely ridiculous but if it does happen you can’t just pick and choose and in my mind a British army soldier shooting an un armed civilian in the back is just about as bad a crime as you’ll see.

 

I hope it's clear that by murderers I meant both the soldiers and the terrorists. In fact in this context I was really only referring to the soldiers, because that's the government's only concern.

The UK government are making an arse of this one because neither they nor their voters actually give a damn about Northern Ireland. They only care about excusing everything done by British armed forces personnel and it never even occurred to them that this is something neither side in Northern Ireland want.

An amnesty might not be such a bad idea but only in the context of a truth and reconciliation process, and the window for doing something like that closed years ago. The people in charge in Whitehall, Westminster and Stormont are incapable of fixing the problems now and too many wounds have been left to fester for too long.

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I hope it's clear that by murderers I meant both the soldiers and the terrorists. In fact in this context I was really only referring to the soldiers, because that's the government's only concern.

The UK government are making an arse of this one because neither they nor their voters actually give a damn about Northern Ireland. They only care about excusing everything done by British armed forces personnel and it never even occurred to them that this is something neither side in Northern Ireland want.

An amnesty might not be such a bad idea but only in the context of a truth and reconciliation process, and the window for doing something like that closed years ago. The people in charge in Whitehall, Westminster and Stormont are incapable of fixing the problems now and too many wounds have been left to fester for too long.

That was getting a bit of mileage today on Radio Ulster, can't remember who was advocating it, the idea has been mooted on and off over the years, but some of these alleged crimes are 50+ years old, there's not a hope of getting to the bottom of them now, particularly the ones involving paramilitaries.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

None of the NI parties are in favour of an amnesty (albeit probably for different reasons)...

I think the amnesty is to stop security force double/triple agents being exposed.

Neither side is in favour because they have an unshakable belief that the other side are the baddies and must be punished. They both have a point.

Lots of credible commentators saying that a major motivating factor for the UK government is that evidence of collusion between the security services and loyalist terrorists would come out. They've sealed a lot of files under national security, including files on the murders of children by soldiers. That may well be a big part of it but honestly I don't think Johnson really cares about that. I think the greater motivation is to throw red meat to the Daily Mail warriors. 

[Jacksgranda]

59 minutes ago, BlueBear said:

A few I ran away sympathisers breaking cover. 

Why are these c***s in government? 

People vote for them, that's why.

[GordonS]

1 minute ago, Jacksgranda said:

That was getting a bit of mileage today on Radio Ulster, can't remember who was advocating it, the idea has been mooted on and off over the years, but some of these alleged crimes are 50+ years old, there's not a hope of getting to the bottom of them now, particularly the ones involving paramilitaries.

Truth and reconciliation isn't about investigations, it's about people coming forward and confessing what they've done. It's for both sides to admit to and apologise for the harm they did to the other. It doesn't need to cover every incident or be proven with documents and testimony, it's more about getting things out in the open and committing to a fresh start. That was possible for 5 years or so after the Good Friday Agreement but there's no chance of it happening now, everyone is too entrenched again.

[Jacksgranda]

6 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

That was getting a bit of mileage today on Radio Ulster, can't remember who was advocating it, the idea has been mooted on and off over the years, but some of these alleged crimes are 50+ years old, there's not a hope of getting to the bottom of them now, particularly the ones involving paramilitaries.

 

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

Truth and reconciliation isn't about investigations, it's about people coming forward and confessing what they've done. It's for both sides to admit to and apologise for the harm they did to the other. It doesn't need to cover every incident or be proven with documents and testimony, it's more about getting things out in the open and committing to a fresh start. That was possible for 5 years or so after the Good Friday Agreement but there's no chance of it happening now, everyone is too entrenched again.

Surely that would get to the bottom of it, no?

"I shot David McQuillan."

"I planted the Droppin' Well bomb."

"I made the Claudy bomb."

"I shot William Nash."

Out in the open, faces and names, at long last.

[BlueBear]

8 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

People vote for them, that's why.

No one involved or convicted in terrorist activities should have been allowed near government. McGuiness a culprit in chief ffs! Aside the fact SFira refused to take the oath nor their seats in the UK Parliament says a lot. 

A great foundation for democracy not! Blackmail and intimidation rules continue to lever the Republican case and that dopey c**t Boris only added insult to injury. The only faction I have seen making any gains since the GFA are the nationalist/republicans. 

In ten years are we looking at a unified Ireland? I get the impression that Boris would be happy to get rid. 

A sad state of affairs. 

[NotThePars]

The British state isn’t interested in these cases being prosecuted fully because it’s really obvious their grubby fingers will be involved much deeper than a lot of people are willing to admit. It wouldn’t be surprising if it was the same albeit less intensively involved in a lot of loyalist paramilitary violence

[GordonS]

40 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

 

Surely that would get to the bottom of it, no?

"I shot David McQuillan."

"I planted the Droppin' Well bomb."

"I made the Claudy bomb."

"I shot William Nash."

Out in the open, faces and names, at long last.

If it were to happen now I'd expect both republicans and loyalists to get people to lie, in order to protect big figures like Gerry Adams and the memory of people like Martin McGuinness. And they wouldn't name names, so others involved who hadn't come forward would remain in the shadows.

[Salt n Vinegar]

13 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

 

Surely that would get to the bottom of it, no?

"I shot David McQuillan."

"I planted the Droppin' Well bomb."

"I made the Claudy bomb."

"I shot William Nash."

Out in the open, faces and names, at long last.

There is no chance of any of the "truth and reconciliation" stuff in NI delivering anything but further death and mayhem.  Anyone "fessing up", or implicating anyone else, would be toast within a fortnight. You only have to look at the attitudes of the unionist and nationalist "communities" in Scotland to see that we are miles away from either side being remotely interested in putting the past behind them. 

I'm no expert, but I remember the times of change South Africa; truth and reconciliation worked, at least to some extent, because both sides recoginsed that their country was going down the toilet and faced international condemnation because of apartheid.  However, at least most of the folk there on both "sides" appeared to be of the view that SA was 'a' country and some folk gave up a lot to try to make the future better.  In NI, there's probably a much closer split in the population; a population that can't even agree about whether they want to be Irish or British. The first opinion poll info I found gave a 43/51 Ireland/UK preference.  ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/03/how-could-a-vote-on-the-unification-of-ireland-play-out) 

Most unionists see Irish unification as an existential threat to their way of life.  Some nationalists view the past as an armed struggle against an occupying force.  There's no middle ground. 

NI is a modern European tragedy. 

[Ziggy]

48 minutes ago, BlueBear said:

No one involved or convicted in terrorist activities should have been allowed near government. McGuiness a culprit in chief ffs! Aside the fact SFira refused to take the oath nor their seats in the UK Parliament says a lot. 

A great foundation for democracy not! Blackmail and intimidation rules continue to lever the Republican case and that dopey c**t Boris only added insult to injury. The only faction I have seen making any gains since the GFA are the nationalist/republicans. 

In ten years are we looking at a unified Ireland? I get the impression that Boris would be happy to get rid. 

A sad state of affairs. 

Here’s hoping.