"The ICT Thread - The Championship Years"

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

All the warbling on about Project Brave and so on is an attempt to shift the blame away from the board and to say "look, the SFA are making us spend all this money". It doesn't wash - every other club is in the same boat and seems to manage without such a gaping hole in finances.

They are not though are they? Most of the Project Brave clubs are in the Premiership where income levels are miles better (12th in the Premiership makes prize money of about 3 times top of the Championship, and Inverness haven't been anywhere near top, though they have had parachute payments). Others like Dundee United are also making huge losses.

Project Brave is extortionately expensive. It's intended to price smaller clubs out of it. They don't want them involved. Which isn't to defend Inverness for consciously choosing to remain in it when they clearly can't afford it. That's financial suicide. However, let's not pretend Project Brave is some sort of cost neutral magix source of youth footballers. It's not.

[SimonLichtie]

2 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

Given that every club regardless has cash flow problems I suppose fans feel relief from their own club's woes

This is very interesting - can you give me some info regarding the cashflow problems we're having at Arbroath currently?  

[SandyCromarty]

39 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said:

This is very interesting - can you give me some info regarding the cashflow problems we're having at Arbroath currently?  

Look I don't want to go down this road of pointing fingers at clubs as we all have our troubles, but if you insist then the fact that your team has remained part time in a predominently full time league would suggest that full time would be a financial outlay the directors wish to avoid.

And yes you can say that your league position and results have been good so far but believe me it's early days

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, SandyCromarty said:

Look I don't want to go down this road of pointing fingers at clubs as we all have our troubles, but if you insist then the fact that your team has remained part time in a predominently full time league would suggest that full time would be a financial outlay the directors wish to avoid.

And yes you can say that your league position and results have been good so far but believe me it's early days

Uh huh, all very interesting. But completely irrelevant to the question he asked you. What cash flow problems are Arbroath, or Queen of the South for that matter, currently having?

[SandyCromarty]

2 hours ago, sophia said:

Nah, not happening.

Ryan Christie is heading south and the sell on clause will land ICT a very substantial six figure sum.

 

I would agree with that, watching his performance last night showed him to be part of the backbone of that Celtic team and unless his loyalty tells him otherwise I can see him heading south.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

They are not though are they? Most of the Project Brave clubs are in the Premiership where income levels are miles better (12th in the Premiership makes prize money of about 3 times top of the Championship, and Inverness haven't been anywhere near top, though they have had parachute payments). Others like Dundee United are also making huge losses.

Project Brave is extortionately expensive. It's intended to price smaller clubs out of it. They don't want them involved. Which isn't to defend Inverness for consciously choosing to remain in it when they clearly can't afford it. That's financial suicide. However, let's not pretend Project Brave is some sort of cost neutral magix source of youth footballers. It's not.

Inverness are at the "Progressive" level of Project Brave, and there are other Championship clubs involved at that level (Ayr, Dundee United, Partick Thistle) plus other smaller Premiership clubs (St Mirren, Ross County).

I would say that it's a fair criticism that the Elite level is pricing smaller clubs out, but I'm not sure that can be levelled at the Progressive one.

[SimonLichtie]

27 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

Look I don't want to go down this road of pointing fingers at clubs as we all have our troubles, but if you insist then the fact that your team has remained part time in a predominently full time league would suggest that full time would be a financial outlay the directors wish to avoid.

And yes you can say that your league position and results have been good so far but believe me it's early days

Yes; full time football would be impossible for Arbroath to sustain, no doubt about it.

Now, lets get off the topic of things Arbroath FC could do in the future that would give us cashflow problems, and talk about our current cashflow problems that you mentioned?

I agree it's a bit silly to go down this road of pointing fingers at clubs, but more because you're randomly pointing at clubs you have no idea about and going 'look at them and their financial problems' when these problems don't exist for us at the moment and quite clearly do for yourselves (which is a shame to read about).

Reacting to your own club's financial mismanagement (previous chairman or not) by pointing the finger at literally every other football club in Scotland without knowing their finances etc. just seems very odd to me.

 

[edinburghhonestman]

38 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

Look I don't want to go down this road of pointing fingers at clubs as we all have our troubles, but if you insist then the fact that your team has remained part time in a predominently full time league would suggest that full time would be a financial outlay the directors wish to avoid.

And yes you can say that your league position and results have been good so far but believe me it's early days

And surely that's the whole point?  Arbroath's directors look at the potential costs and decide to run the club on a sustainable basis which means staying part time. To do anything else would be reckless.  That's just good financial governance which the Dundees, Livis, etc. all failed at.

[RiG]

30 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Inverness are at the "Progressive" level of Project Brave, and there are other Championship clubs involved at that level (Ayr, Dundee United, Partick Thistle) plus other smaller Premiership clubs (St Mirren, Ross County).

I would say that it's a fair criticism that the Elite level is pricing smaller clubs out, but I'm not sure that can be levelled at the Progressive one.

Is there a breakdown anywhere of the (approximate) costs of the various levels of PB?

Edited October 4, 2019 by RiG

[LondonHMFC]

With Caley struggling for immediate cash, wouldn't it be an option to ask Celtic to buy out the sell on fee for Christie? 

Similarly to Tottenham with Bale. 

[Skyline Drifter]

39 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Inverness are at the "Progressive" level of Project Brave, and there are other Championship clubs involved at that level (Ayr, Dundee United, Partick Thistle) plus other smaller Premiership clubs (St Mirren, Ross County).

I would say that it's a fair criticism that the Elite level is pricing smaller clubs out, but I'm not sure that can be levelled at the Progressive one.

Partick's Academy was bankrolled by a lottery millionaire. Let's see if it carries on at that level if his withdrawal of funding carries on for any time.

Dundee United are Championship by current location but they are a big team, with big spending and they too have run up big losses while here, it's just their new owner is picking up the tab.

St Mirren and Ross County are still getting more than £1m per annum in League funding (+ County already enjoyed the bankrolling of a rich benefactor). I confess I've no idea how Ayr afford the level they play at.

Project Brave is absolutely intentionally pricing smaller clubs out.

[D'Jaffo]

Partick's Academy was bankrolled by a lottery millionaire. Let's see if it carries on at that level if his withdrawal of funding carries on for any time.

Dundee United are Championship by current location but they are a big team, with big spending and they too have run up big losses while here, it's just their new owner is picking up the tab.

St Mirren and Ross County are still getting more than £1m per annum in League funding (+ County already enjoyed the bankrolling of a rich benefactor). I confess I've no idea how Ayr afford the level they play at.

Project Brave is absolutely intentionally pricing smaller clubs out.

We barely afford it tbh. That’s been the issue of our summer. We finished 4th last season and would’ve earned far more in prize money that we would’ve budgeted for yet our player budget has been reduced from last season. Our chairmen listed all of the things that we spent money on one of them being player bonuses that went up on account of our league finish and one of them was PB.

 

Our chairman is no longer subsidising us, partially because he can’t really afford to and also because he wants to sell. Unless someone buys us we could probably end up like ICT in a few years.

[PB1994]

34 minutes ago, LondonHMFC said:

With Caley struggling for immediate cash, wouldn't it be an option to ask Celtic to buy out the sell on fee for Christie? 

Similarly to Tottenham with Bale. 

That would depend on there actually being a release clause. I’m not so sure one was put in the deal.

[RiG]

1 hour ago, PB1994 said:

That would depend on there actually being a release clause. I’m not so sure one was put in the deal.

Apparently at a recent AGM it was confirmed one was in place. Taking that with a pinch of salt regardless.

[PB1994]

15 minutes ago, RiG said:

Apparently at a recent AGM it was confirmed one was in place. Taking that with a pinch of salt regardless.

I had been told there wasn’t one but hopefully you are right.

[sophia]

1 hour ago, RiG said:

Apparently at a recent AGM it was confirmed one was in place. Taking that with a pinch of salt regardless.

Let me tell you that it was said yesterday evening that "I've never been so keen to see a transfer being completed".

Is this enough to soothe the furrowed brow of flat earthers?

 

 

[parsforlife]

^^^
Central belt bias and its not an attempt to shift blame at all.
The fact of the matter is that ICT have substantial extra costs involving travel and time that none of the teams in the orbit of Glasgow have.

I get there’s an element of ‘highland subsidy’ that some of the more isolated clubs needs to pay out to encourage a player to sign for them, however that’s a choice you choose to make. Outside of that what have you got? Coaches for away games? Let’s be really generous here and say it’s £1000 a game it costs. (Probably half that) where’s the other £780000 being spent?

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

I get there’s an element of ‘highland subsidy’ that some of the more isolated clubs needs to pay out to encourage a player to sign for them, however that’s a choice you choose to make. Outside of that what have you got? Coaches for away games? Let’s be really generous here and say it’s £1000 a game it costs. (Probably half that) where’s the other £780000 being spent?

As has been said a million times before, Kenny Cameron handing out ridiculous contract between 2015-17. Most notably Foran on a 4 year deal (that we’re still paying I believe), Jake Mulraney on a ridiculously high contract in which his wages doubled, Owain Fon Williams on about 4 grand a week, our two largest ever budgets being spunked on our two worst squads ever. Add all that to relegation and forever dwindling crowds and those losses will never disappear unless we go part time or have some miracle promotion to the Premiership again. The facts are that a club our size cannot feasibly wipe out those losses by the previous board, in the Championship, without heavy investment or more likely part time football.

[parsforlife]

Previous mistakes create debt, current mistakes create losses.   Your current squad(or at least last seasons) are losing money hand over fist. 

its ridiculously easy to blame past mistakes or outside factors. But your current board should have been 100% aware of both and haven’t adjusted.  

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Previous mistakes create debt, current mistakes create losses.   Your current squad(or at least last seasons) are losing money hand over fist. 
its ridiculously easy to blame past mistakes or outside factors. But your current board should have been 100% aware of both and haven’t adjusted.  

Our current squad aren’t losing money, not even sure what that means tbh. We are still suffering from the decisions of our past board in the Premiership.

As for the current board ‘adjusting’, they have missed several opportunities but we’d always have been in huge trouble unless we got promotion quickly or went part time. We simply can’t recover from these losses as a full time club in the Championship, without investment. I don’t think any club in this division could.