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Linlithgow Rose 2017-18


Auld Heid
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You're not kidding. Zealots posting obsessively on one issue, calling anyone who sees it differently a dinosaur. No attempt to consider that there might be a legitimate alternative point of view, just mockery. All it does is turn folk off and drive them away.
Does Burnie even watch football?

You've gone full Isa and lost all sense of reasoning. Why the need to get personal?

There are no zealots, there are people who believe that moving into the Pyramid is the right thing to do and will argue that point. You are free to counter it.

Not so long ago you said Linlithgow in the LL was a great thing, you've changed your tune.
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8 hours ago, GordonS said:

I can foresee a possible future in which we're in a league with Edusport Academy, Cumbernauld Colts, BSC "Glasgow", East Kilbride, Bonnytoun Thistle, Edinburgh Uni and Stirling Uni and getting much lower gates for those games than we do in the Superleague. I can see us taking far fewer supporters to those away games than we normally do, because with the possible exceptions of Edinburgh Uni and EK they'll have less atmosphere than a game up at that freezing ground at Carluke in January. Midweek. At 3am. In a blizzard.

In the realm of all possible outcomes, are you saying that this isn't even possible?

BTW, I was at a Bonnytoun Thistle cup match a couple of weeks ago. There were 12 spectators, and other than me I think they were all only there because they're friends and family of players. I have huge respect for what Bonnytoun do in developing young players but that's not something I want to pay to watch. 

Looking at the benefits and risks I think we ought to go too, and as soon as possible. But saying that there is NO REASON to favour staying is a bit of an insult to those who see it differently. I'm hoping for a more respectful debate than that. 

Yeah pick all the worst teams you can ? 
Never mind the fact that in a few years time the LL could well  be Kelty, Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Spartans, Whitehill, East Kilbride, East Stirling and thats not to mention of a west tier 6 league appears and then the LL could include some of the top west sides as well... 
Stop thinking like a dinosaur and you will see its the only way to go now....or slowly die and become amateur, It seems to me the people holding this back are all of the OAP brigade, the one's who wont be around to deal with the mess left if we don't go.  

The worrying thing for me is none of the Rose committee will even speak to you about it or discuss it... They are failing their members  

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47 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Do you not seriously think some of these teams will be relegated out long before LR get anywhere near the LL? Bonnyton are nowhere near being licenced to get out the South yet. There's an awful lot of 'if my aunt had balls.." to this.

Spot On. As I put on a previous post In 3 years time the LL could more than likely have 1 or 2 current SPFL sides, top 6 clubs in the current LL, top 4 ex East region Juniors, top 4 ex West Juniors if as expected a WOS Feeder is formed. It will be a working pyramid with everyone finding their level and as each season passes the LL and the feeders will get stronger and we will wonder what all the fuss was about.

The EOS and WOS top divisions would also be very competitive with the Cup competitions throwing up some tasty ties each season.

Going by the minutes from 2013 a full pyramid was the desire from the SFA/SPFL by 2016 under 1 body, with clubs Licenced and a non league Scottish Cup, it’s 2018 and through the actions of clubs in the East, by 2019 we could have that 2013 plan  implemented.

SFA Licenced, Fixture Lists, No backlog of games as the LL and EOS have proven, U20s, Rivalries being kept with new ones made, Big open Non League Scott Cup, Entry into Big Scott Cup, Betfred and Irn Bru Cups, no glass ceiling.

I cant see any negatives in this at all, saying someone who has also been brought up steeped in Junior football since I was a kid. I like many others can see the bigger picture of how it will look.

 

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8 hours ago, Glenconner said:

Personally looking forward to Hamilton Accies playing Larkhall Thistle away.

Think you need to come up with a new example. After staying up (albeit probably for the last time given how many key players have either already left or are now leaving) and securing new sponsors Accies should be OK again financially. Clyde playing Rutherglen Glencairn would be the one I would use. Saw an interesting list of who could be in a new WoS league on the nonleague matters forum yesterday from a poster who usually seems to have his finger on the pulse of what's happening:

http://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?post=873935#873935

Realistically, what WILL happen from 2019 is that a West Senior League will be formed with around a dozen defectors from the West Juniors, including some very big clubs*. These clubs will move quickly towards licensing. The remaining West Junior clubs may continue to operate independently under the auspices of the SJFA, but without the carrot of Scottish Cup participation for the Champions. .......
* West defectors could include Kilwinning Rangers, Girvan, Beith, Port Glasgow, Petershill, Kirkintilloch Rob Roy, Clydebank, Cumnock, Carluke, Gartcairn, Rossvale, Benburb, St Rochs + Bonnyton Thistle, Glasgow University

 

 

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1 hour ago, kefc said:

Spot On. As I put on a previous post In 3 years time the LL could more than likely have 1 or 2 current SPFL sides, top 6 clubs in the current LL, top 4 ex East region Juniors, top 4 ex West Juniors if as expected a WOS Feeder is formed. It will be a working pyramid with everyone finding their level and as each season passes the LL and the feeders will get stronger and we will wonder what all the fuss was about.

The EOS and WOS top divisions would also be very competitive with the Cup competitions throwing up some tasty ties each season.

Going by the minutes from 2013 a full pyramid was the desire from the SFA/SPFL by 2016 under 1 body, with clubs Licenced and a non league Scottish Cup, it’s 2018 and through the actions of clubs in the East, by 2019 we could have that 2013 plan  implemented.

SFA Licenced, Fixture Lists, No backlog of games as the LL and EOS have proven, U20s, Rivalries being kept with new ones made, Big open Non League Scott Cup, Entry into Big Scott Cup, Betfred and Irn Bru Cups, no glass ceiling.

I cant see any negatives in this at all, saying someone who has also been brought up steeped in Junior football since I was a kid. I like many others can see the bigger picture of how it will look.

 

Even just thinking about it, I don't think Bonnyton (in my example) will ever escape the South unless automatic promotion for the SoS comes in - the EoS side is going to be significantly stronger than the SoS candidate for the forseeable. I'd put decent money on HRA never getting back up from EoS either. Things have altered to such an extent it's game-changing for the LL. 

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28 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Even just thinking about it, I don't think Bonnyton (in my example) will ever escape the South unless automatic promotion for the SoS comes in - the EoS side is going to be significantly stronger than the SoS candidate for the forseeable. I'd put decent money on HRA never getting back up from EoS either. Things have altered to such an extent it's game-changing for the LL. 

They could do it if the EoS champions were unlicensed, the same way that Edusport went up.  They'll need to be quick though, the proposed WoSL will be another obstacle.

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6 minutes ago, gwd440 said:

They could do it if the EoS champions were unlicensed, the same way that Edusport went up.  They'll need to be quick though, the proposed WoSL will be another obstacle.

Yes, but they're also unlicensed and not sure how close they are to getting the necessary done at Harriet Road to change that... My feeling would be that by time BT were licensed, more in EoS would be too. You also have factor in that every relegation from LL takes another Licensed club doon.

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8 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Yes, but they're also unlicensed and not sure how close they are to getting the necessary done at Harriet Road to change that... My feeling would be that by time BT were licensed, more in EoS would be too. You also have factor in that every relegation from LL takes another Licensed club doon.

This is true, and is why they'd need to get their licensing skates on.

But if the EoS is about to be dominated by the new Juniors (and LTHV) as everyone expects and the top side doesn't get their licensing in place in time, then there could be an opportunity for the SoS champions to go up unopposed.

I have a feeling too that the next few teams being relegated to the EoS from the LL may find it very difficult to go back up.

Also, if Dalbeattie Star were to be next for the drop, where will they drop to? SoS, or the new WoSL?

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41 minutes ago, gwd440 said:

...where will they drop to? SoS, or the new WoSL?

Will be interesting to see whether the licensed SoS clubs will be expected to join this new WoSL and whether the SoS will become a feeder to it if licensing becomes the norm at tier 6 as the EoS seem to be aiming for at the moment. There's no real need for three feeders to the LL given how small the population of Dumfries and Galloway is and how reluctant some of the licensed clubs from there appear to be to be in the LL from a travel standpoint.

1 hour ago, gwd440 said:

I have a feeling too that the next few teams being relegated to the EoS from the LL may find it very difficult to go back up.

Some of the Borders teams will probably be looking at consecutive relegations now to find their natural level. Hopefully Bo'ness and Lithgae both see what way the wind is blowing now and avoid ever having to be at that sort of level to be able to progress higher.

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6 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

 

I am desperate for someone to present me a reason to back my original view.

Our home crowds are all Linlithgow with very few visitors other than Boness and Bonnyrigg both who are leaving. Last night it was mostly our fans most away games are the same.

Watching the Rose play any of the teams remaining holds the same appeal as playing the teams you reference.  But to not have games against the teams I reference would make staying worse.

20 years ago I couldn't imagine not having feisty affairs against Whitburn.  They chose unwisely at that time not to join the super league. I see a lot of similarities in that decision to our current stance.

I agree, except for one thing. Our crowds do seem to fluctuate quite significantly depending on the opposition. If Whitburn were in the Superleague I think we'd get bigger crowds for those games than for, say Forfar WE. I can see a problem if we got stuck in the EoS league behind a couple of good Junior rivals, with decent clubs dropping down each year from the LL. Five, six years of that could be very dangerous. 

As I say, I think the risks of staying are much greater than the risks of going - but going does carry some risk, what we have now is pretty good, and I can understand why some are unconvinced.

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4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Do you not seriously think some of these teams will be relegated out long before LR get anywhere near the LL? Bonnyton are nowhere near being licenced to get out the South yet. There's an awful lot of 'if my aunt had balls.." to this.

At least four of the seven clubs I mentioned are nowhere near being at risk of relegation in the foreseeable future, even in a more competitive league.

Yeah, there's an element of "if my Auntie had baws", but sometimes Aunties have baws and there are risks in change. I'm willing to bet that, within 10 years of the pyramid being settled, at least one of the big Junior clubs will have failed to adjust to it and will have fallen a long way. 

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8 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I agree, except for one thing. Our crowds do seem to fluctuate quite significantly depending on the opposition. If Whitburn were in the Superleague I think we'd get bigger crowds for those games than for, say Forfar WE. I can see a problem if we got stuck in the EoS league behind a couple of good Junior rivals, with decent clubs dropping down each year from the LL. Five, six years of that could be very dangerous. 

As I say, I think the risks of staying are much greater than the risks of going - but going does carry some risk, what we have now is pretty good, and I can understand why some are unconvinced.

What you have is pretty good for now  but you have to look at the future.  Will it be the case 3-5 years

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3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

At least four of the seven clubs I mentioned are nowhere near being at risk of relegation in the foreseeable future, even in a more competitive league.

Yeah, there's an element of "if my Auntie had baws", but sometimes Aunties have baws and there are risks in change. I'm willing to bet that, within 10 years of the pyramid being settled, at least one of the big Junior clubs will have failed to adjust to it and will have fallen a long way. 

Well that's life isn't it? Things come and go, adapt or be left behind. The non-league scene at the turn of the decade was a fractured mess. It's less so now. I agree that I don't see some of those clubs struggling immediately but it depends how quickly new blood comes in. And onfield performances are only a manager change or two away from a nosedive. There's no guarantee BSC and Cumbernauld Colts especially would continue to thrive if the West sides were clambering for promotion to LL. The future is impossible to predict other than things will change. If change is inevitable (and I think it is), the losers are those who resist it longest.

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I agree, except for one thing. Our crowds do seem to fluctuate quite significantly depending on the opposition. If Whitburn were in the Superleague I think we'd get bigger crowds for those games than for, say Forfar WE. I can see a problem if we got stuck in the EoS league behind a couple of good Junior rivals, with decent clubs dropping down each year from the LL. Five, six years of that could be very dangerous. 
As I say, I think the risks of staying are much greater than the risks of going - but going does carry some risk, what we have now is pretty good, and I can understand why some are unconvinced.


What we have now is finished....
Did you not see that kelty, bonnyrigg, camelon, Hill of Beath and now probably Boness and Penicuik are all away.
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3 hours ago, GordonS said:

I agree, except for one thing. Our crowds do seem to fluctuate quite significantly depending on the opposition. If Whitburn were in the Superleague I think we'd get bigger crowds for those games than for, say Forfar WE. I can see a problem if we got stuck in the EoS league behind a couple of good Junior rivals, with decent clubs dropping down each year from the LL. Five, six years of that could be very dangerous. 

As I say, I think the risks of staying are much greater than the risks of going - but going does carry some risk, what we have now is pretty good, and I can understand why some are unconvinced.

Totally agree that the bigger risk is staying.  What we have now is all but finished with the teams who are moving - Bo'ness would be the final nail.

Whitburn are a pale shadow of themselves as a result of staying whilst others around  left.   Playing them now would be just another fixture.  At least moving  opens up new challenges and new rivals.

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It's a no brainer for LR. We are one of the few liscenced teams. We could get to the playoffs without even winning the league.

A Lowland league in ten years excites me. I predict it'll be the best East and west junior teams with the rest slowly being relegated and replaced. Maybe one or two others will remain but it'll happen.

And only every two or three years will there be a promotion which sort of gives the glass ceiling in place for the juniors just now.

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