The St. Mirren FC 2023/24 thread

[FTOF]

33 minutes ago, Div said:

There's plenty amusement to be had at the expense of Aberdeen after last night but I do feel a wee bit for Goody who will now inevitably be sacked.

Club legend as a player, and did some decent stuff with us in the dugout but perhaps the Aberdeen gig was just too big a step for him, who knows.

The one positive we can take from it is that despite Robbo really being one of the stand out SPFL candidates to replace Goodwin there is absolutely no chance that they will come in for him. Can you imagine the rage of their supporters if they trod that exact same path again!

Martindale is the only other candidate I can think of who is over performing in the SPFL, and I just can't see him being the right fit for Pittodrie.

Jack Ross as interim to the Summer might be a go-er but his CV is tarnished, same as Sean Maloneys is.

It's a bit of a mess for them, but hopefully a mess that is still well and truly in place when we go there next Weds night.

I don't blame Goodwin, nor Ross for that matter, for trying to move up a level.

However, both of them, I feel could have benefitted from a longer spell with us. It would seem that their ambition outweighed their ability, which seems to be common place in many professions these days. Of course their decisions would have been heavily influenced by finance. Within themselves they may have doubted their ability, and might have thought that they might never be offered a job of that size again.

Either way, they both have severely tarnished managerial reputations.

 

[ZingaliMan]

Wages aside going to Aberdeen puzzled me patience is not a virtue in the northeast. Aberdeen fans demand success today not tomorrow. Langfield hinted it when Goodwin left admitting he would not follow . 

[Div]

4 minutes ago, FTOF said:

I don't blame Goodwin, nor Ross for that matter, for trying to move up a level.

However, both of them, I feel could have benefitted from a longer spell with us. It would seem that their ambition outweighed their ability, which seems to be common place in many professions these days. Of course their decisions would have been heavily influenced by finance. Within themselves they may have doubted their ability, and might have thought that they might never be offered a job of that size again.

Either way, they both have severely tarnished managerial reputations.

 

I think in both cases it was simply far too good a move to turn down.

Thing is Goodwin could easily have been facing the sack from us had he came back from the Winter Break last season and continued losing games. As it was we came back and went on a 7 or 8 game unbeaten run and suddenly he's gone from possibly being punted to getting an enormous wage rise and a 2.5 year contract at arguably the 5th biggest club in the country.

Even if/when he is sacked by Aberdeen he'll still almost certainly get another bite at a Premiership gig depending on how things pan out at the likes of Ross County.

Jack is a strange one as obviously the Dundee Utd gig was an absolute disaster but he did do reasonable things with both Sunderland and Hibs, I don't think he's suddenly turned into a terrible coach/manager.

I wouldn't trade Robbo for either Ross or Goodwin though, no chance!

[FTOF]

2 minutes ago, Div said:

I think in both cases it was simply far too good a move to turn down.

Thing is Goodwin could easily have been facing the sack from us had he came back from the Winter Break last season and continued losing games. As it was we came back and went on a 7 or 8 game unbeaten run and suddenly he's gone from possibly being punted to getting an enormous wage rise and a 2.5 year contract at arguably the 5th biggest club in the country.

Even if/when he is sacked by Aberdeen he'll still almost certainly get another bite at a Premiership gig depending on how things pan out at the likes of Ross County.

Jack is a strange one as obviously the Dundee Utd gig was an absolute disaster but he did do reasonable things with both Sunderland and Hibs, I don't think he's suddenly turned into a terrible coach/manager.

I wouldn't trade Robbo for either Ross or Goodwin though, no chance!

I think they're both decent managers, but it would appear that mid-table SPFL premiership is their limit.

I do think Robbo is a better manager, but apparently he can't maintain decent managerial form over the course of a season, according to our Fir Park stalkers.

 

 

[Drooper]

27 minutes ago, FTOF said:

I don't blame Goodwin, nor Ross for that matter, for trying to move up a level.

However, both of them, I feel could have benefitted from a longer spell with us. It would seem that their ambition outweighed their ability, which seems to be common place in many professions these days. Of course their decisions would have been heavily influenced by finance. Within themselves they may have doubted their ability, and might have thought that they might never be offered a job of that size again.

Either way, they both have severely tarnished managerial reputations.

 

Agreed, though perhaps the hindsight argument could be applied.

I was surprised that Aberdeen went for Goodwin, to be honest. After taking a punt on Glass, I thought they would go down the more proven manager route. If for no other reason than to regain a bit of credibility.

Jim hadn't achieved anything of significant note, unlike Jack Ross, who at least was coming off the back of a fantastic season and league championship.

I might be being unduly cynical, but I think both Ross and Goodwin are/were articulate, assured, and very media friendly.  This resulted in them being touted as the next big thing in their respective moments. That seemed to overshadow their actual and potential limitations.

ETA: consider Martindale by way of contrast. A more rough and ready character who, despite his very significant achievements against considerable odds, tends to be less often touted and, by association, courted.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Drooper

[Div]

4 minutes ago, Drooper said:

Agreed, though perhaps the hindsight argument could be applied.

I was surprised that Aberdeen went for Goodwin, to be honest. After taking a punt on Glass, I thought they would down the more proven manager route. Of for no other reason than to regain a bit of credibility.

Jim hadn't achieved anything of significant note, unlike Jack Ross, who at least was coming off the back of a fantastic season and league championship.

I might be being unduly cynical, but I think both Ross and Goodwin are/were articulate, assured, and very media friendly.  This resulted in them being touted as the next big thing in their respective moments. That seemed to overshadow their actual and potential limitations.

ETA: consider Martindale by way of contrast. A more rough and ready character who, despite his very significant achievements against considerable odds, tends to be less often touted and, by association, courted.

Yip would agree with that. Martindale is a really strange situation, as he seems to pretty much run everything at Livingston, they don't seem to be run like a "normal" top flight football club.

What he's done there has been truly remarkable, but could he take it and replicate it a bigger club? I'm not so sure.

I don't think we'll ever find out though, nobody will touch him!

[aldo_j]

2 minutes ago, Div said:

Yip would agree with that. Martindale is a really strange situation, as he seems to pretty much run everything at Livingston, they don't seem to be run like a "normal" top flight football club.

What he's done there has been truly remarkable, but could he take it and replicate it a bigger club? I'm not so sure.

I don't think we'll ever find out though, nobody will touch him!

Yeah, I’d agree with that on DM.

The issue with Jim is a really simple one, and probably comparable with Moyes at West Ham right now. A counter attack manager working with a team that’s an underdog. However, any time they try to open up and be expansive then it’s a disaster.

Jim’s best spells were playing 4-1-4-1, collapsing into our own half and then creating traps. Any time he tried to open up we went on a poor run of form.

Maybe if he’d ‘stuck to the knitting’ at Dons he’d have won more. Probably not impressed the fans much, though.

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

38 minutes ago, Div said:

I think in both cases it was simply far too good a move to turn down.

Thing is Goodwin could easily have been facing the sack from us had he came back from the Winter Break last season and continued losing games. As it was we came back and went on a 7 or 8 game unbeaten run and suddenly he's gone from possibly being punted to getting an enormous wage rise and a 2.5 year contract at arguably the 5th biggest club in the country.

Even if/when he is sacked by Aberdeen he'll still almost certainly get another bite at a Premiership gig depending on how things pan out at the likes of Ross County.

Jack is a strange one as obviously the Dundee Utd gig was an absolute disaster but he did do reasonable things with both Sunderland and Hibs, I don't think he's suddenly turned into a terrible coach/manager.

I wouldn't trade Robbo for either Ross or Goodwin though, no chance!

Loving your work there..

[houston_bud]

I feel a bit sorry for Goodwin, I actually expected him to do a decent job there but it was always a risk. Ross I could understand going to a trigger happy Sunderland as the jump in wages (and exposure) would have been huge. Goodwin would've got a sizeable wage increase and a considerably bigger budget, but a poor performance at Aberdeen doesn't leave too many clubs that would be interested when he gets the bullet. I'd expect to see his next job in the Championship, Ross County is the only Premiership team that would be a possibility.

His comments when he took over about sorting the defence out in a week, have made him look like a plonker.

All that said he remains a club hero here for me.

[Div]

48 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Loving your work there..

Think it's totally fair. Aberdeen aren't bigger than either Hearts or Hibs in my opinion.

[Molotov]

Jim Goodwin harbours ambition of managing at international level with Ireland.

It was highly unlikely he was going to achieve that staying at St Mirren. 

He got the move to Aberdeen on the back of an undefeated run that could have gone either way in many of those games. 

I like Jim as a person, but I do feel he is not that good a tactician required in the modern game.

He gave up a part time gig with Alloa to join us. 

Most of us if we are honest would have moved onwards to a greater challenge with a bigger club. 
 

It will be difficult for him to turn this around but I’m sure he will not give up.

I wish him well apart from when he plays against us.

The players really need to take a good look at themselves. 

Too many are on very good wages and don’t seem to have the desire to go on and compete in these cup tournaments which really are the only opportunities that clubs outside of the ugly sisters have. 

 

[Kempes]

Jim and Jack both had decent playing careers, obtained the required coaching certificates and their management careers started well. They both interviewed well, were popular and looked the part. What went wrong? Seems to me they were both blind to obvious weaknesses in their teams that everyone else felt required priority treatment. Whether it was their refusal to sign defensive midfielders, proper defenders or reliable goalkeepers, or whether they were not in control of signings, who knows? Seems to me that you need folk in key ‘support’ roles that know what they are doing if you need to rely on them. Also, it seems that managers are often seen as the finished article once they achieve minimal success. They should be continually learning and developing their knowledge and skills, including ‘man management’.

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

46 minutes ago, Div said:

Think it's totally fair. Aberdeen aren't bigger than either Hearts or Hibs in my opinion.

I don’t disagree…….but I reckon they might.

Although perhaps not today. 

[Bobby_F]

35 minutes ago, Kempes said:

Jim and Jack both had decent playing careers, obtained the required coaching certificates and their management careers started well. They both interviewed well, were popular and looked the part. What went wrong? Seems to me they were both blind to obvious weaknesses in their teams that everyone else felt required priority treatment. Whether it was their refusal to sign defensive midfielders, proper defenders or reliable goalkeepers, or whether they were not in control of signings, who knows? Seems to me that you need folk in key ‘support’ roles that know what they are doing if you need to rely on them. Also, it seems that managers are often seen as the finished article once they achieve minimal success. They should be continually learning and developing their knowledge and skills, including ‘man management’.

I feel that having nice hair, speaking well and rocking a Barbour jacket is far too high up the list of priorities for most clubs looking for a good football manager.

Mind you, I think those attributes tend to help people get promoted beyond their capabilities in sectors other than just football.

[pozbaird]

I could understand Jack Ross going to Sunderland. Big wage hike, a genuinely big club with huge potential, and playing in a division where they should have been eyeing a sharp return to the Championship? I’d have taken it. My memory might be playing tricks, but wasn’t Jack Ross a baw hair away from getting them up? Didn’t they lose a playoff game in the last minute or something? I definitely think Sunderland bagged Ross too soon. Look how it went for them after they pulled the trigger.

I still cannot understand why Jim Goodwin went to Aberdeen. Bigger wages for sure, but he couldn’t have been on peanuts at St Mirren. I bumped into him at the Glasgow Fort before he came to us, and he was selling confectionery for his major source of income. Given the great, albeit short, run he was on with us, he absolutely could have lead us to Top 6, saw his star rise higher, and probably be courted by multiple clubs. He was in probably the most stable gig in Scottish top flight football. I don’t think we’d have bagged him, even if we had been relegated. We had been down a seemingly never ending route of hiring and firing, we needed to stick by someone, Goodwin was definitely that man IMHO. Even if the spectre of sacking hung over him at St Mirren, what the fcuk is that spectre like at Aberdeen? Jim lives near Kirky still? Has a family and all. I don’t know if he hated fan ownership, Kibble, Tony and/or Gordon. I have zero idea of the inner workings. I will always think he made a serious error joining Aberdeen - post Glass, post McInnes, and while a big club, a shadow of their former selves.

[Doonhame Buddie]

Worth remembering that if Aberdeen hadn’t rushed into giving Jim Goodwin the job, Stephen Robinson wouldn’t be our manager now. I know which manager I’d rather have. 

[Div]

3 minutes ago, Doonhame Buddie said:

Worth remembering that if Aberdeen hadn’t rushed into giving Jim Goodwin the job, Stephen Robinson wouldn’t be our manager now. I know which manager I’d rather have. 

Think Goody did really well in his time as our manager, but it could obviously have been even better.

A 7th placed finish and two cup semi finals is not to be sniffed at.

We did however shit the bed 3 times which robbed us of more and that was always the stick he could be beaten with.

I could forgive the Scottish Semi defeat to St.Johnstone as I genuinely felt we were incredibly unlucky to lose that particular game but the League Cup Semi against Livingston was awful as was the arse collapse against Accies that cost us the top six place that season.

[GAD]

27 minutes ago, Div said:

Think Goody did really well in his time as our manager, but it could obviously have been even better.

A 7th placed finish and two cup semi finals is not to be sniffed at.

We did however shit the bed 3 times which robbed us of more and that was always the stick he could be beaten with.

I could forgive the Scottish Semi defeat to St.Johnstone as I genuinely felt we were incredibly unlucky to lose that particular game but the League Cup Semi against Livingston was awful as was the arse collapse against Accies that cost us the top six place that season.

I don't even think it was the arse collapse against Accies that really cost us the top 6, I think there could be serious questions about Goodwin's squad building that often left us short on the big do or die runs of fixtures. We never, ever seemed to have enough defenders for example, yet always had loads of forwards/attacking midfielders. There were always people playing out if position and it ended up with a small, knackered squad running out of steam at the worst possible times.

[LiviLion]

2 minutes ago, Doonhame Buddie said:

Worth remembering that if Aberdeen hadn’t rushed into giving Jim Goodwin the job, Stephen Robinson wouldn’t be our manager now. I know which manager I’d rather have. 

Goodwin with 3 wins from the last 10 in the league, Robinson with 1. Easy choice.

[Coventry Saint]

2 minutes ago, LiviLion said:

Goodwin with 3 wins from the last 10 in the league, Robinson with 1. Easy choice.

You say that, but who was that 1 against?