NorthBank Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 If we budget for 7th and end up 11th then we start the next season £500,000 in debt. So what do we do then? Try again and maybe end up £1M in debt? Or cut the squad and maybe get relegated? To keep the Club running properly at a level we can afford we have to budget for 11th and maybe every couple of years if we end up with a higher position or good cup run then spend some of the savings when we can effectively lose that money. PS for what it is worth I was told there has been some poor financial management which is maybe now being addressed. Not being on the Board I do not know of course but would hope we are prudent for now until we have some cash reserves that we could consider gambling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby_F Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 10 minutes ago, medals said: On the 1st point, its not just the degree of risk, its also the level of reward that goes with it. Or viewing it another way, the level of risk in not speculating when we are able to. We all want to know how the club are managing things. Improving facilities, when needed and as we are able is wise too; better for our squad and more attractive for players to join us etc. The rumour is we spent more there than expected though. I'm sure we'll hear by how much and why soon. More importantly how that leaves us, the suspense - argh. I'm more keen on the games restarting and really hope the good friendly results carry on in the league. "Top 6 Tony" - We'd all love that No idea whether this is the case or not, but on some reasonably minor works I did earlier in the year it went way over budget and that was almost solely down to increases in material costs. So it could be that we did overspend, but it wasn't necessarily down to poor management. I'm nowhere near ITK, but strikes me that a lot of the negative noises on club/SMISA/Kibble related matters throughout this year have been more about personal agendas than what's the best for the club. Which if true, is pretty rubbish. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medals Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 9 minutes ago, NorthBank said: If we budget for 7th and end up 11th then we start the next season £500,000 in debt. So what do we do then? Try again and maybe end up £1M in debt? Or cut the squad and maybe get relegated? To keep the Club running properly at a level we can afford we have to budget for 11th and maybe every couple of years if we end up with a higher position or good cup run then spend some of the savings when we can effectively lose that money. PS for what it is worth I was told there has been some poor financial management which is maybe now being addressed. Not being on the Board I do not know of course but would hope we are prudent for now until we have some cash reserves that we could consider gambling. If we budget for 11th the chances of us getting relegated are far higher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthBank Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 12 minutes ago, medals said: If we budget for 11th the chances of us getting relegated are far higher. If we budget for 7th and don't make it the chances of going bust are much higher. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS77 Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, NorthBank said: If we budget for 7th and don't make it the chances of going bust are much higher. That’s a bit extreme. Edited December 12, 2022 by SS77 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medals Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, NorthBank said: If we budget for 7th and don't make it the chances of going bust are much higher. So we are coming at this from opposite sides. If we budget for 7th the chances of top 6 are far higher too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_&_T Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 24 minutes ago, medals said: If we budget for 11th the chances of us getting relegated are far higher. Sorry to interject, as a non-Saints fan, but surely the club should always budget to break even at worst. If you can spend more than other clubs, fine, but if you cannae, then why jeopardie the club's future? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Div Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, G_&_T said: Sorry to interject, as a non-Saints fan, but surely the club should always budget to break even at worst. If you can spend more than other clubs, fine, but if you cannae, then why jeopardie the club's future? I think everyone does get that premise. The club has been down to a hundred grand in the bank when reporting it's accounts in recent years, so the fact I'm getting a bit arsey about us speculating when we have a million in the bank needs to be taken in that context I suppose. I'm not anti-Kibble at all - as a SMiSA member I voted in favour of them getting involved. End of the day I think they get the blame for pretty much anything that has gone wrong since, and they don't get any credit for all the things that have gone well or have been improved (and believe me a lot of things have improved in the day to day running of the club). I do have reservations about our finances, but I will shut up about it now and wait on the accounts. I'm sure I said that a few weeks ago though and here we are again. Looking forward to getting back at it at Motherwell on Saturday. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medals Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 17 minutes ago, G_&_T said: Sorry to interject, as a non-Saints fan, but surely the club should always budget to break even at worst. If you can spend more than other clubs, fine, but if you cannae, then why jeopardie the club's future? Your presumption of not budgeting to break even means jeopardising the clubs future, is wrong. You need to reread the arguments above. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DumbartonBud Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 It is all about your appetite for risk, budgeting for a position that is equal to the highest we’ve achieved for a number of years and significantly above our long term average would suggest that the board have a larger appetite for risk than I might. Most of our expenditure is on players wages and in the last year or two we have used two/ three year contracts so if we have spent significantly above our income for one year it would not be unreasonable to suggest that that will be the case for the following year, unless the squad size reduces. Transfer fees are a potential additional income but the timing and size of them cannot be accurately predicted and it would be foolish to base a significant chunk of your expenditure on the possibility of them coming in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_&_T Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, medals said: Your presumption of not budgeting to break even means jeopardising the clubs future, is wrong. You need to reread the arguments above. I don't want to hijack a thread that has little to do with me (other than attending a couple of the bigger games per season, often as a one-day fan), but...say you were to budget with the assumption that you finished 7th, and would receive the money for that; and then the transfers didn't work out and you finished eleventh, wouldn't that leave the club out of pocket? Is it not common sense that any club (outside of the Old Firm whose realistic very worst position will be third) should budget for the worst case scenario? Anyone can have a bad season - why have a bad season, and add debt to the club's woes? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medals Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 3 hours ago, G_&_T said: I don't want to hijack a thread that has little to do with me (other than attending a couple of the bigger games per season, often as a one-day fan), but...say you were to budget with the assumption that you finished 7th, and would receive the money for that; and then the transfers didn't work out and you finished eleventh, wouldn't that leave the club out of pocket? Is it not common sense that any club (outside of the Old Firm whose realistic very worst position will be third) should budget for the worst case scenario? Anyone can have a bad season - why have a bad season, and add debt to the club's woes? There are loads of unknowns, ifs and if it doesn't work the way you hope. No one purports that we take crazy gambles. We currently have more income than budgeted through higher attendance and Baccus at the world Cup. We've gone a bit higher on player budget but we have a £ million of reserves. Did we truly budget 7th? Or is that the aim? I suspect our budget is far lower than 7th compared to other clubs. We're sitting among and competing with teams who will finish 3rd 4th etc and were having the best season we've had in many seasons. We live in fear and finish in the bottom end or we invest and either reap the rewards or revisit things at the end of the season. Either way we are not going burst based on 1 or 2 seasons. We sell someone as we often do, or perhaps a good cup run or higher placed finish means the world to our fan base and gives us extra for the future. If not we take stock... I'm not worried. The team are playing the best football we've seen in years and the risk is manageable. We are on the up... so long as we keep our heads screwed on and don't allow internal things to upset the applecart. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Div Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 Yeah end of the day it's enjoyable watching us on the pitch at the moment. It's as good a squad as we've had since the cup winners of 2013 and that one was heavily bolstered by loan signings of which we don't actually have any at the moment and a couple of massive players who probably wouldn't have joined us had it not been for personal connections with the club. I maybe worry too much. I'm definitely gonna shut it now about finances until the accounts come out. Pinky promise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Stanton Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/scott-robertson-set-celtic-transfer-28713103 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenburn bud Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 26 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/scott-robertson-set-celtic-transfer-28713103 You would expect his destination will be Fleetwood or another English side. The wage on offer would be significantly more than we can offer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coventry Saint Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 When we picked up that recognition for being one of the world's financially best-run clubs... What period did that relate to? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Div Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Coventry Saint said: When we picked up that recognition for being one of the world's financially best-run clubs... What period did that relate to? https://offthepitch.com/a/pitch-crowns-st-mirren-best-run-club-financially-201920 That related to season 2019-2020, the season that finished early at the start of the pandemic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 If we budget for 7th and fcuk it up, we’re risking going bust? If we budget for 11th, we’re unlikely to have a squad good enough to achieve much, so are risking relegation? Just budget for 9th and we’ve got it covered. I should be on the board. Step aside Kibble, move over Needham… I’m all over this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smellthepaw Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 11 hours ago, medals said: There are loads of unknowns, ifs and if it doesn't work the way you hope. No one purports that we take crazy gambles. We currently have more income than budgeted through higher attendance and Baccus at the world Cup. We've gone a bit higher on player budget but we have a £ million of reserves. Did we truly budget 7th? Or is that the aim? I suspect our budget is far lower than 7th compared to other clubs. We're sitting among and competing with teams who will finish 3rd 4th etc and were having the best season we've had in many seasons. We live in fear and finish in the bottom end or we invest and either reap the rewards or revisit things at the end of the season. Either way we are not going burst based on 1 or 2 seasons. We sell someone as we often do, or perhaps a good cup run or higher placed finish means the world to our fan base and gives us extra for the future. If not we take stock... I'm not worried. The team are playing the best football we've seen in years and the risk is manageable. We are on the up... so long as we keep our heads screwed on and don't allow internal things to upset the applecart. Finally, a post with a positive spin on it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthBank Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, SS77 said: That’s a bit extreme. How do you work that out? The difference between 7th and 11th is half a million. So if we do not make 7th we are in debt going into the following season. Do we gamble again and maybe lose another half million or try and reduce our costs by paying less and attracting poorer players? Your formula seems to be we keep gambling in the hope that it some stage it pays off. My philosophy is we build up a warchest before we start a 'gamble'. And for the record the following Scottish Clubs have all entered Administration since 2000 - Queens Park Morton Clydebank Airdrie Motherwell Dundee (twice) Livingston (twice) Gretna (out of business) Rangers (out of business) Dunfermline Hearts Those that survived had a sugar daddy bail them out. We don't but we could sell the Club with all the risks that entails. Or play in the Lowland League. Edited December 13, 2022 by NorthBank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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