The St. Mirren FC 2023/24 thread

[brokeville]

Sounds like he's off.

[Soctty]

The whole "Jack Ross To Dundee" thing is based on newspaper speculation, mainly driven by a newspaper who make things up, tell hurtful lies and hack the phones of dead children.

Nothing to see.

[NorthBank]

8 hours ago, Dee Man said:

Surely our prospects for next season would be determined by Ross' ability to manage the club if he got the job? Are you saying if he got the job we would be fighting relegation again. Poor lack of confidence in your manager's managerial skills IMO.

 

No offence but Dundee are a bottom six Club (especially with Hibs being promoted). With your infrastructure he has no chance to win anything. If he stays with us he can potentially win the League, increase his profile and move to a Club with potential - Dundee are static with no room for growth. Bad career move for Ross.

[CALDERON]

2 minutes ago, NorthBank said:

No offence but Dundee are a bottom six Club (especially with Hibs being promoted). With your infrastructure he has no chance to win anything. If he stays with us he can potentially win the League, increase his profile and move to a Club with potential - Dundee are static with no room for growth. Bad career move for Ross.

Doing a good job with Dundee will do far more for his career than winning this league with St Mirren.

Flip side is, Ross could end up finishing 3rd/4th and fall at the playoffs. 

[NorthBank]

2 minutes ago, CALDERON said:

Doing a good job with Dundee will do far more for his career than winning this league with St Mirren.

Flip side is, Ross could end up finishing 3rd/4th and fall at the playoffs. 

The only good job anyone could do with Dundee would be avoid relegation - again. There is no room for potential. Do you want to be a manager in a League that you have a chance of winning or a League where you know avoiding relegation is a success? As a career move JR should stay where he is with a golden opportunity instead of going where there are no opportunities. If he wins the League or gets to the play-offs his reputation rockets and he can move to a big club with potential - Dundee are not that club.

[brokeville]

Jacks an ambitious,articulate and smart guy and I would be surprised if he doesn't make the step up with Dundee. He would love to put one over Hearts after the way he was treated.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, NorthBank said:

The only good job anyone could do with Dundee would be avoid relegation - again. There is no room for potential. Do you want to be a manager in a League that you have a chance of winning or a League where you know avoiding relegation is a success? As a career move JR should stay where he is with a golden opportunity instead of going where there are no opportunities. If he wins the League or gets to the play-offs his reputation rockets and he can move to a big club with potential - Dundee are not that club.

[Dee Man]

17 minutes ago, NorthBank said:

No offence but Dundee are a bottom six Club (especially with Hibs being promoted). With your infrastructure he has no chance to win anything. If he stays with us he can potentially win the League, increase his profile and move to a Club with potential - Dundee are static with no room for growth. Bad career move for Ross.

 

9 minutes ago, NorthBank said:

The only good job anyone could do with Dundee would be avoid relegation - again. There is no room for potential. Do you want to be a manager in a League that you have a chance of winning or a League where you know avoiding relegation is a success? As a career move JR should stay where he is with a golden opportunity instead of going where there are no opportunities. If he wins the League or gets to the play-offs his reputation rockets and he can move to a big club with potential - Dundee are not that club.

This logic man.

[Buddist Monk]

Are Dundee a bigger team? Probably, but only just. Certainly 40 or 50 years ago, but now? Much of a muchness. Got a bit of time for the Dundee fans, when we won the league in 2001 at Love Street, they stood to applaud us. So fair play with that.

Will Ross go to Dundee? No, and I will give you 3 main reasons...

1) Infrastructure.
Dundee may have 'wealthy' backers but the stadium is dilapidated and facilities are only in the pipeline rather than built - unlike St Mirren. Essentially taking over as a coach (coach mind, not manager) it's clear going from St Mirren to Dundee is a backwards step. We saw with Love Street how expensive it can be to build a decent (in relation) stadium. Dens could be sold, money could be raised, grants could be sought, but ultimately you are talking a rough £10m plus all the upheaval of building (or moving to) the new stadium and the knock on effect that has on the team transfer budget. No doubts, St Mirren completely lucked out with Tesco, but I can't see that happening with Dens.

2) League position.
McCann barely papered over the cracks at Dundee. He did what he needed to do (keep them up) but it's obvious that squad needs a serious shake down. You would expect money to be available to any manager, although that is discussed in (1). All the time at Dundee he would need to worry about the relegation battle. Obviously there is no way I can state for a fact St Mirren won't end up in the same position as it was last season, but I think even the most myopic of observers will be hard pushed to give a cogent argument to support that view. So in that sense the pressure will be pushing for the top rather than avoiding a death spiral at the bottom. All in all, the margin of error is considerably greater at St Mirren. At Dundee Ross would get maybe 5-6 games honeymoon period and the pressure would be on - not always a negative thing, btw - but it's definitely a gamble and the way the squads, finances and facilities are just now it's not necessarily good odds on that gamble.

3) Don't finish a job half way through.
This is all intangible, but imo, I believe that Ross feels he has only just turned the ship around rather than set it's course. Why would you put so much effort into something only to decide to walk away? Obviously the lure of the bait is what's key here. McInnes goes to Sunderland, would Ross jump at the chance at Aberdeen? Of course he would, but that really is a big step up. As postulated before, there really isn't that level of step up to Dundee. Bringing players in, working with them, and almost redefining the team from the bottom up - and not just that but to succeed at the task in hand (avoiding relegation) - it would seem like months of "wasted" work (relatively, the objective was set and matched) especially to return to square one with Dundee. There is no specific metric to this other than general logic - so it's the 'weakest' argument of all, but most would probably agree that Ross would always harbour thoughts of "what if" should he walk away now. From everything he says, and he does seem to be pretty straight forward when it comes to speaking to the press and media, it certainly leans towards him wanting to test what he has learned over the last 6 months and make a real tilt at the title.


In short? Ross won't go, Dundee are a marginally bigger team - although not by much, facilities and stadium wise it's a step down to move there and finally the job needing done at Dundee is effectively the job he has started on 6 months ago with St Mirren, so once more a step back.

Are there positive arguments for him to go to Dundee? Of course there are, you'd be stupid to suggest otherwise, but while the grass might be greener on the other side (or at least richer) it is by no means any more sweet.


All in all, if he does actually go, he's certainly lasted longer than Iain Munro.

[Buddist Monk]

Are Dundee a bigger team? Probably, but only just. Certainly 40 or 50 years ago, but now? Much of a muchness. Got a bit of time for the Dundee fans, when we won the league in 2001 at Love Street, they stood to applaud us. So fair play with that.

Will Ross go to Dundee? No, and I will give you 3 main reasons...

1) Infrastructure.
Dundee may have 'wealthy' backers but the stadium is dilapidated and facilities are only in the pipeline rather than built - unlike St Mirren. Essentially taking over as a coach (coach mind, not manager) it's clear going from St Mirren to Dundee is a backwards step. We saw with Love Street how expensive it can be to build a decent (in relation) stadium. Dens could be sold, money could be raised, grants could be sought, but ultimately you are talking a rough £10m plus all the upheaval of building (or moving to) the new stadium and the knock on effect that has on the team transfer budget. No doubts, St Mirren completely lucked out with Tesco, but I can't see that happening with Dens.

2) League position.
McCann barely papered over the cracks at Dundee. He did what he needed to do (keep them up) but it's obvious that squad needs a serious shake down. You would expect money to be available to any manager, although that is discussed in (1). All the time at Dundee he would need to worry about the relegation battle. Obviously there is no way I can state for a fact St Mirren won't end up in the same position as it was last season, but I think even the most myopic of observers will be hard pushed to give a cogent argument to support that view. So in that sense the pressure will be pushing for the top rather than avoiding a death spiral at the bottom. All in all, the margin of error is considerably greater at St Mirren. At Dundee Ross would get maybe 5-6 games honeymoon period and the pressure would be on - not always a negative thing, btw - but it's definitely a gamble and the way the squads, finances and facilities are just now it's not necessarily good odds on that gamble.

3) Don't finish a job half way through.
This is all intangible, but imo, I believe that Ross feels he has only just turned the ship around rather than set it's course. Why would you put so much effort into something only to decide to walk away? Obviously the lure of the bait is what's key here. McInnes goes to Sunderland, would Ross jump at the chance at Aberdeen? Of course he would, but that really is a big step up. As postulated before, there really isn't that level of step up to Dundee. Bringing players in, working with them, and almost redefining the team from the bottom up - and not just that but to succeed at the task in hand (avoiding relegation) - it would seem like months of "wasted" work (relatively, the objective was set and matched) especially to return to square one with Dundee. There is no specific metric to this other than general logic - so it's the 'weakest' argument of all, but most would probably agree that Ross would always harbour thoughts of "what if" should he walk away now. From everything he says, and he does seem to be pretty straight forward when it comes to speaking to the press and media, it certainly leans towards him wanting to test what he has learned over the last 6 months and make a real tilt at the title.


In short? Ross won't go, Dundee are a marginally bigger team - although not by much, facilities and stadium wise it's a step down to move there and finally the job needing done at Dundee is effectively the job he has started on 6 months ago with St Mirren, so once more a step back.

Are there positive arguments for him to go to Dundee? Of course there are, you'd be stupid to suggest otherwise, but while the grass might be greener on the other side (or at least richer) it is by no means any more sweet.


All in all, if he does actually go, he's certainly lasted longer than Iain Munro.

[CALDERON]

7 minutes ago, NorthBank said:

The only good job anyone could do with Dundee would be avoid relegation - again. There is no room for potential. Do you want to be a manager in a League that you have a chance of winning or a League where you know avoiding relegation is a success? As a career move JR should stay where he is with a golden opportunity instead of going where there are no opportunities. If he wins the League or gets to the play-offs his reputation rockets and he can move to a big club with potential - Dundee are not that club.

Again, doing a good job at Dundee gives far more opportunity than with St Mirren in their current situation.  Winning the league with St Mirren wont open any more doors than it would going to Dundee, and even then, St Mirrens limitations in the Premiership would be at very best the same as Dundee.

I think Ross did a fine job with St Mirren last season and he will likely go on to do a good job this season – but a move to Dundee is a significant step forward for his career.  

[The Master]

13 hours ago, NorthBank said:

Cannot agree with that. A premier league club who just avoided relegation.

Whereas you are a Championship club who just avoided relegation.

[Shandon Par]

It was a unique set of circumstances for Ross and St Mirren. He had a transfer window where he was able to totally overhaul his team and then reel in a couple of shite teams in total freefall and coming up against full time teams winding down with little to play for. Best to get out on a high as it's a tough looking division next year and even getting into the playoff positions could be a very difficult task.

[flyingscot]

1 minute ago, NorthBank said:

The only good job anyone could do with Dundee would be avoid relegation - again. There is no room for potential. Do you want to be a manager in a League that you have a chance of winning or a League where you know avoiding relegation is a success? As a career move JR should stay where he is with a golden opportunity instead of going where there are no opportunities. If he wins the League or gets to the play-offs his reputation rockets and he can move to a big club with potential - Dundee are not that club.

Getting them into top 6 and winning something would be success. Winning a cup might be harder than previous years as Celtic look very good. Can see why he stays and can see why he goes. 

5 minutes ago, Shandon Par said:

It was a unique set of circumstances for Ross and St Mirren. He had a transfer window where he was able to totally overhaul his team and then reel in a couple of shite teams in total freefall and coming up against full time teams winding down with little to play for. Best to get out on a high as it's a tough looking division next year and even getting into the playoff positions could be a very difficult task.

^^ trying to derail the Saints Promotion Train. 

[Buddist Monk]

It was a unique set of circumstances for Ross and St Mirren. He had a transfer window where he was able to totally overhaul his team and then reel in a couple of shite teams in total freefall and coming up against full time teams winding down with little to play for. Best to get out on a high as it's a tough looking division next year and even getting into the playoff positions could be a very difficult task.

Yeah, as a summary of the situation I'd call that pretty way off. Those totally shite freefall teams didn't just give up. Dumbarton, yourselves and several others didn't just walk up and say "you know, we can't be f*cked, you just have the points".

As for the division being harder next season? Did you miss the years where there was Hibs, Hearts and Rangers in the league? Compare that to a demoralised and managerless Inverness and a United side with financial worries, add in a presumably (and ever present) solid Falkirk and you have arguably the weakest division for some years.

Perhaps your post was kidology, and if it was well done you have snared me into a reply, but only because the points you make do not match up with the reality of what happened and what will happen.

[Buddist Monk]

but a move to Dundee is a significant step forward for his career

It's simply not. I've explained above why that is the case. Could it be consider a step up? Possibly, is it a "significant" step? No, not even in the slightest, unless of course you consider something like St Mirren a significant step up from Raith Rovers.

[Dunning1874]

Why exactly would it be impossible for a good manager to take Dundee into the top six? Why is avoiding relegation the limit of their ambitions? If Partick could get into the top six this season, why couldn't Dundee in the future? There is a tendency for people to overstate how big a club Dundee are these days, but they clearly still have the potential to be a top six side again.

Okay, the one year they finished there recently was the season Hearts, Hibs and Rangers were all in the second tier, but there's no reason to believe that Hearts and Hibs will be in the top six in perpetuity. Hearts were the worst team in the league for the second half of last season, Hibs last finished in the top six in 2009/10. Even this season the league was extremely tight outside the top five: while Dundee ended up in relegation trouble, they started March in sixth place. It only became mathematically impossible for them to make it two games before the split.

The idea that the top six is definitely outwith Dundee's reach and avoiding relegation is the best a good manager could ever achieve with them is a ridiculous notion, only surpassed in this thread by the suggestion that Jack Ross could get the Aberdeen job on the basis of what he's done with St. Mirren: Aberdeen aren't going to take a chance on a manager whose biggest achievement is avoiding relegation from the second tier, or even one who wins the second tier. What would attract attention from a club of their stature is turning Dundee from relegation battlers into a solid top six side.

Again, it's not so massive a step-up that he'd be crazy to turn it down and you can see why he'd choose to stay, but the suggestion that Dundee isn't a significant step-up from St. Mirren is ridiculous.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Dunning1874

[CALDERON]

4 minutes ago, Buddist Monk said:

Yeah, as a summary of the situation I'd call that pretty way off. Those totally shite freefall teams didn't just give up. Dumbarton, yourselves and several others didn't just walk up and say "you know, we can't be f*cked, you just have the points".

As for the division being harder next season? Did you miss the years where there was Hibs, Hearts and Rangers in the league? Compare that to a demoralised and managerless Inverness and a United side with financial worries, add in a presumably (and ever present) solid Falkirk and you have arguably the weakest division for some years.

Perhaps your post was kidology, and if it was well done you have snared me into a reply, but only because the points you make do not match up with the reality of what happened and what will happen.

It will be harder in the sense of trying to get into top 4.  Dunfermline are stronger than last season.  And in Falkirk, Utd, ICT and St Mirren you already have 4 teams who would certainly expect to be up there.  The top 4 positions could be made up of any of those teams, that’s before you look at Morton or Queens having good seasons and being there or there abouts.  Its going to be much more competitive.

Last season the awful start from St Mirren, average/poor form of Dunfermline, mid season collapse of Queens and utter disaster from ourselves meant that top 4 could be achieved without being spectacular.  There looks to be a lot more in the way of solid teams meaning that a top 6/7 club having a meltdown looks more unlikely. 

[btb]

8 minutes ago, Shandon Par said:

It was a unique set of circumstances for Ross and St Mirren. He had a transfer window where he was able to totally overhaul his team and then reel in a couple of shite teams in total freefall and coming up against full time teams winding down with little to play for. Best to get out on a high as it's a tough looking division next year and even getting into the playoff positions could be a very difficult task.

Winding down - in April we played Morton, Falkirk & Dundee Utd. while they were going for second place, the only game that possibly fits is Hibs and they fielded a strong team against us not wanting to finish their league campaign with a defeat.

As for next season being "tough looking" undoubtedly so but not as tough as last year.

***************

If Dundee decide Ross is their man he'll go "bird in the hand and all that......................." - but I hope there's no cheap exit clause written into Ross's contract and the price scares Dundee off.

[RR #1]

36 minutes ago, NorthBank said:

The only good job anyone could do with Dundee would be avoid relegation - again. There is no room for potential. Do you want to be a manager in a League that you have a chance of winning or a League where you know avoiding relegation is a success? As a career move JR should stay where he is with a golden opportunity instead of going where there are no opportunities. If he wins the League or gets to the play-offs his reputation rockets and he can move to a big club with potential - Dundee are not that club.

Neither are St Johnstone but look at what they have achieved in recent years.  Finishing 4th with a smaller club is a far greater achievement than winning the championship with a club like St Mirren.