Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[SANTAN]

No chance of seeing the Cherry on top then. 

I was hopeful she would fester away inside the party but she's unfortunately been lanced like a boil, I can't see her going for the assault option tbf  

Edited February 1, 2021 by Stormzy

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, tirso said:

I've not really been following the thread of late so don't really know to be totally honest.  I'm just going by what I've seen elsewhere online.  I think there is a feeling that women don't want to raise issues for fear of being traduced and defined as not progressive. Sometimes the progressive thing is to think carefully. I'm in the Andy whiteman camp I think that resigned from the greens.  The whole debate is poison when it needn't be.

I personally have great admiration for any trans walking down the street in today's world. That environment should be changed as it shouldn't be brave, it should just be their right.  They're clearly in small number and marginalised.  I also think there are issues when it comes to sport that some just want to wish away. 

All together it should never have become such a big issue but intolerance has made it so.

FWIW, we don't know what Andy Wightman's camp is, other than he thinks he should be allowed to take any line he wants on an issue of equality and not be constrained by being in a political party. I think he's transphobe-curious and hasn't yet reached the realisation that the people who are opposed are no better than those who opposed homosexuality up until about 20 years ago. There were women's rights groups who didn't let lesbians in. I think he's confused that people fighting against one form of discrimination could be in favour of a different discrimination. But we're all guessing because he hasn't said anything.

It's a myth that this is about women BTW - in polling women are consistently much more open to trans people and their access to places.

 

[pandarilla]

That's an absolutely fine position to take, as is that espoused by the likes of VT that this is an issue of non-critical importance at the moment and should never have been allowed to become a wedge issue in the first place. However, it's the same crocodile tears argument to which genuinely phobic people pivot when they realise that their views aren't well-received, before some dribbling pish about being terrified of being cancelled. We've seen in recent times on here a certain member going from some fairly rabid transphobic commentary to now mewling about how you're not allowed to have a polite discussion about it without being labelled a bigot. Absolutely correct to have the polite discussion, but some folk are clearly just covering their backs.

I think you're downplaying the effect of being called a bigot, though. That kind of word is not going to be taken as a general point of disagreement, and it's going to piss people off.

[Detournement]

It's a bold move to axe her after the show of strength in the NEC elections. I'm guessing we will see a few MPs and MSPs coming out hard against Sturgeon's handling of the Salmond complaints when the time is right. 

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

21 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

I think you're downplaying the effect of being called a bigot, though. That kind of word is not going to be taken as a general point of disagreement, and it's going to piss people off.
 

True, but not really relevant to my point above I don't think. I'm saying a lot of bigots hide behind those in opposition but open to discussion/undecided on an issue

[NotThePars]

Anyway the recent trajectory of the Sturgeon critics is going to turn her into Corbyn for me. Like, yes, you should be slagging her off but fucking hell for the right reasons lads.

[The Ghost of B A R P]

Just now, NotThePars said:

Anyway the recent trajectory of the Sturgeon critics is going to turn her into Corbyn for me. Like, yes, you should be slagging her off but fucking hell for the right reasons lads.

What are the ‘right reasons’?

[The Ghost of B A R P]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

FWIW, we don't know what Andy Wightman's camp is, other than he thinks he should be allowed to take any line he wants on an issue of equality and not be constrained by being in a political party. I think he's transphobe-curious and hasn't yet reached the realisation that the people who are opposed are no better than those who opposed homosexuality up until about 20 years ago. There were women's rights groups who didn't let lesbians in. I think he's confused that people fighting against one form of discrimination could be in favour of a different discrimination. But we're all guessing because he hasn't said anything.

It's a myth that this is about women BTW - in polling women are consistently much more open to trans people and their access to places.

 

Call it quits will you, for f**k’s sake?

If you don’t understand why men all over the world are suddenly deeply concerned, above all else, about the rights of trans women (they’re curiously less bothered about trans men), you should do yourself a favour and just stop talking.

Either that, or tell us, in clear terms, what exactly is your problem with ‘women’s rights groups’?

[itzdrk]

 

[NotThePars]

Either that, or tell us, in clear terms, what exactly is your problem with ‘women’s rights groups’?

It seeks to exclude some women obviously.

[AMMjag]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

FWIW, we don't know what Andy Wightman's camp is, other than he thinks he should be allowed to take any line he wants on an issue of equality and not be constrained by being in a political party. I think he's transphobe-curious and hasn't yet reached the realisation that the people who are opposed are no better than those who opposed homosexuality up until about 20 years ago. There were women's rights groups who didn't let lesbians in. I think he's confused that people fighting against one form of discrimination could be in favour of a different discrimination. But we're all guessing because he hasn't said anything.

It's a myth that this is about women BTW - in polling women are consistently much more open to trans people and their access to places.

 

'I don't know so I'll just speculate he's transphobe' is as equally extreme as outright transphobia, and exactly the reason why many in the party are stuck in this quagmire of shite.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

No doubt Cherry's demotion will be seized on by the Unionist media as heralding the fall of the Nationalist empire, but that would be premature. For any political party to be successful there needs to be free and open debate and tolerable dissent, but there is also such a thing as collective responsibility. Cherry has form here and it has now caught up with her; she can now rein herself in or exit.
And as regards that 'empire', folk would do well to remember that the SNP is currently the vehicle for independence, not its repository. It's not over until it's over.

[Richie]

I can't be the only one who doesn't much like Sturgeon or Salmon and just worries that this will badly affect the independence fight. 

If it does then people are quite myopic.
Independence is far bigger than individuals and/or specific parties.

[Detournement]

30 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Anyway the recent trajectory of the Sturgeon critics is going to turn her into Corbyn for me. Like, yes, you should be slagging her off but fucking hell for the right reasons lads.

Really?

The cynical take is that Sturgeon is hoping that her faction can use transphobia as successfully as her PV Blairite pals used Anti Semitism.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Detournement

[alta-pete]

12 minutes ago, Richie said:

If it does then people are quite myopic.
Independence is far bigger than individuals and/or specific parties.

Independence is the very definition of ‘myopic’. 

[Juanhourjoe]

Great work. Sturgeon showing the anti sturgeonites up as the irrelevance they are. She will have to act decisively, and fast after the election, on indyref. Otherwise they'll be back to attacking the FM, and gain a bit more attention from it. But I predict she will, and cherry and co will be finished.

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, Juanhourjoe said:

Great work. Sturgeon showing the anti sturgeonites up as the irrelevance they are. She will have to act decisively, and fast after the election, on indyref. Otherwise they'll be back to attacking the FM, and gain a bit more attention from it. But I predict she will, and cherry and co will be finished.

They control the NEC. 

That's a bit more relevant than getting to sit next to Blackford at PMQs. 

[Erih Shtrep]

WINGS OVER SCOTLAND (banned from twitter, still has FB)  thought I'd check what he's been saying.  

OFFICIAL NOTICE: From this point on, saying "Look, just stick with the SNP until we get independence then we can sort all this other stuff out afterwards" gets you instantly permabanned for being a catastrophically stupid fucking w****r.

[pandarilla]

Really?
The cynical take is that Sturgeon is hoping that her faction can use transphobia as successfully as her PV Blairite pals used Anti Semitism.

Aye there's a touch of that going on i reckon.

[NotThePars]

Sturgeon using transphobia as a proxy to wage internal battles would just be following from what the mental wing of her party have been doing for the last 2-3 years lol