Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[The_Kincardine]

Just now, Clown Job said:

Scotland doesn’t exist anymore 

Bold argument 

Happy to partition Ireland and create a sectarian state, but Scotland leaving the union is apparently a step too far 

You’re not a Brit, not really, you are and will always be seen as a jock to your fellow “countrymen” 

Politically, Scotland and England haven't existed since 1707.  This is beyond contention.  Yes, we have a devolved assembly but, to use the old saw, power devolved is power retained.

Oh and I don't like the partition of Ireland, so don't blame me for that one - but that was last night's discussion.

[Theyellowbox]

7 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I stopped there.  In order to be a ScotchNat you have to lie to yourself and Lie 1 is, "GB is just an island".

As i have said many times, the less you know of Scotland and its history the more likely you are to be a ScotchNat.

It's nothing to do with politics. Britain is the big Island, Great Britain is the big island and surrounding island, British Isles includes Ireland, Isle of Man etc. What you are meaning is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island. I don't think the Northern Irish like being left out....

[git-intae-thum]

38 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 thankfully, a declining number.

Very debatable claim that. I know a democratic way to find out though. 

Unfortunately the current UK government and their sycophants ain't very keen on the Scottish people determining their democratic will.

[Clown Job]

11 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Politically, Scotland and England haven't existed since 1707.  This is beyond contention.  Yes, we have a devolved assembly but, to use the old saw, power devolved is power retained.

Oh and I don't like the partition of Ireland, so don't blame me for that one - but that was last night's discussion.

As I said, it’s a bold argument to be making.

One thing I’ve learned about unionist since 2014, they really dislike anything that is seem to be distinctly Scottish, they try to dismiss or extinguish it.

As the old quote from Gwenford Evans goes

“Britishness is a political synonym for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish.“

It never was or has been a union of equals. It was more like a hostile takeover.

Edit: It’s a shame you can’t just be Scottish without unionist trying to force an identity of Britishness on people

I reckoned they fear Scottish identity as they know with the demographics it will lead to one thing 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Clown Job

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, Theyellowbox said:

It's nothing to do with politics. Britain is the big Island, Great Britain is the big island and surrounding island, British Isles includes Ireland, Isle of Man etc. What you are meaning is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island. I don't think the Northern Irish like being left out....

Again, as we discussed last night, the AoU establish GB as the successor nation to the kingdoms of England Scotland.  Thus your, "GB is just an island" is a piece of Natter nonsense.

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, Clown Job said:

As I said, it’s a bold argument to be making.

It's the least bold argument possible.  That the AoU established GB as the successor state to the kingdoms of England and Scotland is beyond contention and is the starting point for any discussions on partition.

[Clown Job]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

It's the least bold argument possible.  That the AoU established GB as the successor state to the kingdoms of England and Scotland is beyond contention and is the starting point for any discussions on partition.

Denying Scotland exist isn’t an argument to maintain the political union 

If any if just proves Gwynford point about Britishness.

[The_Kincardine]

Just now, Clown Job said:

Denying Scotland exist isn’t an argument to maintain the political union 

There isn't a political union.  GB is the product of union.

[Clown Job]

11 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

There isn't a political union.  GB is the product of union.

Of course it’s political 

If you want to go round in circles then fair enough, but nothing you’re saying is an argument for Scotland to remain within the union.

Slapping a flag and declaring they’re British if they like it or not isn’t exactly a vote winner in my opinion

Be interesting to see the next Scottish census might you, as the last one back in 2011 had a clear minority of people who declared they had a British or Scottish and British identity 

Census

62.4% of Scotland's population said they were ‘Scottish only’.

3.3 million people had Scottish identity only. This was most common in 10 to 14 year olds, at 71.5%.

It was least common among 30 to 34 year olds, at 56.7%.

18.3% of the population said their national identity was ‘Scottish and British identities only’.

So again, good luck with that Scotland doesn’t exist argument. 
 

Edit: I would argue the key to saving the union is devolution and allowing Scots to maintain our own distinctive culture and identity 

The tories and other unionists seem to believe it’s the opposite 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Clown Job

[Theyellowbox]

8 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Again, as we discussed last night, the AoU establish GB as the successor nation to the kingdoms of England Scotland.  Thus your, "GB is just an island" is a piece of Natter nonsense.

You really don't have much of an argument for the union do you? Regardless of what happens, we are all British in the end as this is the island we live on. If you can only justify the union based on what happened 300 years ago and not what happens going forward, then I think you need to go and have a wee think about what it is you are arguing for.

As I've said before, there is real debates to be had about how an independent Scotland would be set up and what xutrency and economic set up it should have. But until the unionist stop banging on about history and Acts of Union and meaningfully switch the argument to substantive issues there is no hope. If you want to argue on the emotive, it's not an argument that will win any referendum frankly and deep down you know that as much as I know the independence argument has holes in it.

Of course, we could just declare ourselves bankrupt, walk away from our share of debt and start again claiming all of Scotlands history. Lol

I think it is healthy for unionist and independence supporters to challenge the arguments as ultimately if the best decision is made it is going to be best for the people of Scotland.

 

[The_Kincardine]

10 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

 

Census

62.4% of Scotland's population said they were ‘Scottish only’.

I just downloaded and scanned the 2011 census and there isn't a 'Scottish only' option.  Why do you have to lie?

Edited November 30, 2021 by The_Kincardine

[Clown Job]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

 

I just downloaded and scanned the 2011 census and there isn't a 'Scottish only' option.  Why do you have to lie?

 

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

I just downloaded and scanned the 2011 census and there isn't a 'Scottish only' option.  Why do you have to lie?

I just provided you to a link with the census

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt you didn’t see my link 

[The_Kincardine]

6 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

You really don't have much of an argument for the union do you?

As I said, "If you want (GB) partitioned it's up to you to justify it.".  No idea why you struggle with this.

[Theyellowbox]

9 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

Of course it’s political 

If you want to go round in circles then fair enough, but nothing you’re saying is an argument for Scotland to remain within the union.

Slapping a flag and declaring they’re British if they like it or not isn’t exactly a vote winner in my opinion

Be interesting to see the next Scottish census might you, as the last one back in 2011 had a clear minority of people who declared they had a British or Scottish and British identity 

Census

62.4% of Scotland's population said they were ‘Scottish only’.

3.3 million people had Scottish identity only. This was most common in 10 to 14 year olds, at 71.5%.

It was least common among 30 to 34 year olds, at 56.7%.

18.3% of the population said their national identity was ‘Scottish and British identities only’.

So again, good luck with that Scotland doesn’t exist argument. 
 

Edit: I would argue the key to saving the union is devolution and allowing Scots to maintain our own distinctive culture and identity 

The tories and other unionists seem to believe it’s the opposite 

I think that is an interesting point. You would assume that across Britain the identity of being British only will only continue to diminish. Not necessarily because of Scotland or Wales, but culturally people will identify as Polish and British or Indian and British etc.

I think what needs to happen to strengthen the argument for feeling British is for those in power to more fully recognise what 21st century Britain looks like. It may be difficult for some to hear, but the politicisation of the union flag has been to the detriment of britishness in all of the nations. Younger folk in England see it as a bit Farage/Brexity and in other nations it is seen as divisive.

I don't think the unionists can maneuver quickly enough away from Brexit to sort the damage. 

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, Clown Job said:

 

I just provided you to a link with the census

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt you didn’t see my link 

You didn't.  You provided me a link to an interpretation of the census.  The phrase "Scottish only" isn't an option in the document itself.

[Ludo*1]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

As I said, "If you want (GB) partitioned it's up to you to justify it.".  No idea why you struggle with this.

As a complete a side, was it not this time last year you were 100% certain that Sturgeon would be gone by January 1st 2021 and wanted a charity bet on it? Fancy the same again for this January?

[Antlion]

21 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

There isn't a political union.

We need this kind of dogmatic view front and centre in any UKOK campaign. Scots need to realise that, increasingly, supporting the UK is supporting alt-right, neo-imperialist, archaic, anti-Irish insanity. Even better if, at the head of the campaign, we can legitimately see the Twitter-radicalised mouth-breathers screaming about Ireland being reabsorbed into the UK.
 

All of those “union of equals” lies can get in the bin: “there isn’t a political union! We are one unitary nation state! If you don’t like it, you are a Natter partitionist!” screamed by an Orange Lodge crackpot and backed up by weirdos banned from Twitter should really help do Yes Scotland’s job for it.

[Clown Job]

1 minute ago, Theyellowbox said:

I think that is an interesting point. You would assume that across Britain the identity of being British only will only continue to diminish. Not necessarily because of Scotland or Wales, but culturally people will identify as Polish and British or Indian and British etc.

I think what needs to happen to strengthen the argument for feeling British is for those in power to more fully recognise what 21st century Britain looks like. It may be difficult for some to hear, but the politicisation of the union flag has been to the detriment of britishness in all of the nations. Younger folk in England see it as a bit Farage/Brexity and in other nations it is seen as divisive.

I don't think the unionists can maneuver quickly enough away from Brexit to sort the damage. 

I remember reading somewhere a while back that how people from An ethnic background in England could identify as British as English is seen more as a white identity 

Up here you can have an Asian Scot identity, whereas in England an Asian English doesn’t really exist.

Britishness is such a foreigner identity to me, it’s not something I don’t think I could ever identify with, but I wouldn’t grudge any other Scot having it. 

Scottish unionist just seem to pretend Brexit didn’t happen. 

[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

As a complete a side, was it not this time last year you were 100% certain that Sturgeon would be gone by January 1st 2021 and wanted a charity bet on it? Fancy the same again for this January?

Yeah I lost that bet and Scotland has suffered.  Shame, really.  No thanks.  I vastly overestimated the nous of the ScotchNat massive.  Same as I did with Brexit.  Whenever I think, "People can't be that fucking stupid" they prove me wrong.

[Ludo*1]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Yeah I lost that bet and Scotland has suffered.  Shame, really.  No thanks.  I vastly overestimated the nous of the ScotchNat massive.  Same as I did with Brexit.  Whenever I think, "People can't be that fucking stupid" they prove me wrong.