Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

Why do you think it will be left wing at all?

Scotland votes centre and the factors that gave us a reputation of being left wing 30 years ago have disappeared. 

I don't particularly think it will be 'left wing', and it will certainly be to the right of many of my own positions.

It will (eventually) be a bog standard, proportionally represented, Northern European socially democratic republic

Which is absolutely fine.

[Antlion]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

If the leaders of the independence movement were left wingers who displayed historical awareness and had appeared to have the backbone to fight to create a fairer state i'd be all for it. 

Clearly that's not the case though. 

I’m sorry that the SNP can’t be as left wing as Rees Mogg or Johnson. If so, they might make you as glad of Scottish independence as you are of Brexit.

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, Sunrise said:

Would it not be more accurate to suggest sections of Scotland were "left-wing" 30 or so years ago?

You'd be hard-pressed to call Aberdeenshire, Eastwood, the Borders, even North East Fife and Stirling Labour strongholds.

Yes, the SQA are a shitshow today.

30 plus years ago the electorally dominant class in Scotland were the working class led by industrial unionised workers. That's definitely not true now.

We are as much a consumerist nation of individuals as anywhere else at this point. 

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, Antlion said:

What are you talking about? Why would you take a punt on the SNP (hiss) trying to create new institutions when these institutions are surely frangible and open to a socialist revolution any time now? Just look - clearly the Tories and Labour combined are champing at the bit to overturn all of this. All signs of UK history point to a socialist dismantling and rebuilding project, surely.

 

The SNP want to keep the royal family!

And again they can't get shot of them in Australia, Canada, Jamaica or New Zealand so it's probably trickier than you imagine. 

[Antlion]

Just now, Detournement said:

The SNP want to keep the royal family!

And again they can't get shot of them in Australia, Canada, Jamaica or New Zealand so it's probably trickier than you imagine. 

Yep - which is why I’d not support the SNP in an independent Scotland. Yet arguing about it now is about as relevant as discussing the feckless Windsors in the context of the EU referendum debate, or which building should house the head of government’s official residence in the independence debate. I’d argue strongly to abolish the monarchy after achieving independence - a task that I think would be easier if we had an absentee monarch whom we were expected to fund continually.

The countries mentioned could of course get rid of the royals if there was strong enough public feeling against them. That seems to be mitigated by the fact that these countries don’t directly pay for the c***s annually. Alas, as you’ve pointed out, the UK will never be rid of them, as they’re even more seeded in London than anywhere else on the planet, and opinion polls show a stronger attachment to the idea of magic blood in other parts of the UK than Scotland.

[Detournement]

6 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

 

It will (eventually) be a bog standard, proportionally represented, Northern European socially democratic republic

Social democracy didn't happen in Scandinavia or Germany because of geography or the weather. It required a politically active (and extremely homogeneous) working class who were able to oppose capital strongly enough to gain power.

I don't believe the SNP can build that out of thin air even if they wanted to.

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

The SNP want to keep the royal family!
And again they can't get shot of them in Australia, Canada, Jamaica or New Zealand so it's probably trickier than you imagine. 

They don't, but they don't advertise this as only a political party composed of utter fools would set out to jeopardise their vote for no obvious gain. But following independence Scotland would be in lockstep these other countries you mention who are all presently respectfully cooling their jets until Her Majesty slips off the mortal coil. It will all be quite simple and swift when it happens.

[Gordon EF]

I'd like a four bedroom house please.

You can only afford a three bedroom house.

f**k it then, I'll just live in the garden shed.

Because that's a rational thought process.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Gordon EF

[Miguel Sanchez]

48 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

What's the third option then ?

Unrelenting nihilism ?

Sounds exhausting.

[Antlion]

8 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Prince Andrew will surely do a Dipendra soon anyway.

 

[Billy Jean King]

Brexit will change Scotland far less than independence would. 
Setting up an independent country is a huge task. Setting up an country which is capable of turning the tide of neoliberalism is a genuinely historic challenge. What we see day in day out from the SNP hierarchy proves they aren't up to the it. 

So massive a task that 34 Nations have gained sovereign independence since 1990 alone. FFS change the record. What a horrible inferiority complex to be carrying around with you.

[Detournement]

3 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

Brexit will change Scotland far less than independence would. 
Setting up an independent country is a huge task. Setting up an country which is capable of turning the tide of neoliberalism is a genuinely historic challenge. What we see day in day out from the SNP hierarchy proves they aren't up to the it. 

So massive a task that 34 Nations have gained sovereign independence since 1990 alone. FFS change the record. What a horrible inferiority complex to be carrying around with you.

Which countries do you think we should use as an example. 

[Antlion]

5 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Which countries do you think we should use as an example. 

Surely it’s better to draw lessons from all of them rather than picking one and saying, “let’s do that”?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

29 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Social democracy didn't happen in Scandinavia or Germany because of geography or the weather. It required a politically active (and extremely homogeneous) working class who were able to oppose capital strongly enough to gain power.

I don't believe Scotland can build that out of thin air even if we wanted to.

 

FTFY, does this fall under too wee or too stupid ? Again you quite deliberately fall into the habit of assuming that the SNP will rule Scotland ad infinitum post independence.

The key point we seem to disagree on here is that you envision a left leaning future as more likely in the UK(lol) than an Independent Scotland, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

FTFY, does this fall under too wee or too stupid ? Again you quite deliberately fall into the habit of assuming that the SNP will rule Scotland ad infinitum post independence.

The key point we seem to disagree on here is that you envision a left leaning future as more likely in the UK(lol) than an Independent Scotland, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It falls into too little social solidarity and political education. You can't compare Scotland now to Germany or Norway (or anywhere in Europe) in the 60s and 70s.

I do think that there is more of a left in England than in Scotland now due to material circumstances. We are insulated from a lot of the social issues that impact people in urban areas in England, housing is obviously the biggest difference. 

 

[Baxter Parp]

2 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Hello it's me the "who gives a f**k what the SNP want to do after independence" gnome. I am summoned every time you imply post independence = eternal SNP government

Is that Detournament furious that the SNP haven't put political pressure on the independent Scottish Qualifications Authority? Fancy that.

[Gordon EF]

I love when H_B comes storming into a thread with something ridiculous and then boxes himself into an ever decreasing corner.

[HTG]

21 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I love when H_B comes storming into a thread with something ridiculous and then boxes himself into an ever decreasing corner.

Quite - get the door Frank

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, MixuFruit said:

Question is have the SNP learned anything about pushback on education since P1 testing? It seems inevitable that they're going to have to relent and restore grades, how much political capital will they burn in the meantime?

Are you saying the Scottish Government should meddle in the independent process of awarding qualifications? 

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, MixuFruit said:

words will be had in corridors, unminuted I imagine.

That won't be a nuclear minefield at all, I expect.