New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Dev]

I have tried to pick up on mentions of Amateurs being interested in progressing and others which seem to have grounds which could meet the grade, albeit with some work.

Leven United from the Fife Amateurs seem to have a decent set-up.

Greenlaw from the Borders have modern changing facilities and a ground which needs work. They have been active this year on social media announcing a string of players with past EoS experience. It's between Kelso and Duns so perhaps they could draw players/support from those towns too? It would be good if Duns could find a way back as their ground looks really good.

Universities seem to like the EoS so maybe St Andrews Uni who play in the Fife Amateurs could be a candidate in future.

I'd be pleased to see Cupar Hearts/AM Soccer move up some day.

Let's hope Letham can get their facilities in order so that they will be able to move up. I wondered if they would try a ground-share for a season whilst works were carried out.

One other factor to consider is the number of Councils wanting to off-load loss making sports facilities to local clubs. It's already happening e.g. St Cadocs YC (possibly) and Giffnock, Easterhouse Football Acad, Bailieston Thistle, etc in the west. This could open up possibilities all over the country.

If LTHV move out of Saughton then there's a ground available which met Licencing standards recently. Maybe a club could take it off the Councils' hands (lease) and get Grants to improve it e.g. drainage etc.

[HibeeJibee]

Most of the Edinburgh interest has been soaked-up over the last decade or so. Big youth clubs like Hutchison Vale, Leith Athletic, Tynecastle and Edinburgh South have merged with clubs already in membership or entered under their own steam. Some other names who flirted with it include Christian Salvesen, Links United, Loanhead, Murieston, St Bernards etc... but I don't think several of them even exist now! (Embodied in Leith Athletic are actually several clubs who either applied or joined over the years - Manor Thistle, Telman Star and Edinburgh Athletic).

Look to academia and Edinburgh College who have a football program are now in. Napier, Queen Margarets and St Andrews all play but I don't think they've much quality-wise or facility-wise.

Out in East Lothian - West Barns Star and a new start in North Berwick got quite far along a while ago.

Down in Borders there were a couple of abortive attempts by Gala Rovers... occasional rumours of Chirnside Utd or Greenlaw... plus posters on here with wishful thinking for Duns, Kelso or Selkirk to be reborn. (Eyemouth will no doubt join that list); of those only Duns feels realistic but who knows. Tweedmouth Amateurs went public with their intentions to join and get licensed a few years ago but that boat's surely sailed with the ascent of Tweedmouth Rangers.


Predict most interest next year will be from amateurs, not youths... based on suburban parts and provincial towns, not the city... from the northern part of the catchment, not the Lothians... and in greater numbers than before.

[Ginaro]

14 hours ago, Burnieman said:

Looked up Linton Hotspur there and they do have a good wee set-up.

I wonder once the structure settles down, that a Third Division start would be attractive to a club like that, same with a few other Border clubs with their own ground eg Duns, maybe an Eyemouth return.

Some questions arise though. Are the EOS allowed to split the bottom tier into north/south regions? (suggestions in the WOS forum that the SFA wouldn't allow them to do it) As that would obviously be more attractive to teams from the Borders and Fife.

And if not would the likes of Duns and Eyemouth want to travel regionwide even if they were playing teams at roughly the same level?

Would the EOS relax their ground criteria for their bottom tier to attract more clubs, as they might only have 9 next season?

As for Edinburgh, once Meadowbank is ready you would have the main pitch (Leith?) and Ainslie Park (LTHV?) available. That could leave Saughton, and Peffermill free for a club lower down if Leith move.  Also Fernieside if Edinburgh South get it enclosed?

[Burnieman]

5 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Some questions arise though. Are the EOS allowed to split the bottom tier into north/south regions? (suggestions in the WOS forum that the SFA wouldn't allow them to do it) As that would obviously be more attractive to teams from the Borders and Fife.

And if not would the likes of Duns and Eyemouth want to travel regionwide even if they were playing teams at roughly the same level?

Would the EOS relax their ground criteria for their bottom tier to attract more clubs, as they might only have 9 next season?

As for Edinburgh, once Meadowbank is ready you would have the main pitch (Leith?) and Ainslie Park (LTHV?) available. That could leave Saughton, and Peffermill free for a club lower down if Leith move.  Also Fernieside if Edinburgh South get it enclosed?

First I've heard of the SFA dictating what a league can do at lower levels.  I'd expect that if the EoS wanted to regionalise the bottom tier in the future then they will.

[Ginaro]

4 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

First I've heard of the SFA dictating what a league can do at lower levels.  I'd expect that if the EoS wanted to regionalise the bottom tier in the future then they will.

In response to the proposal to change the conferences to Ayrshire/Glasgow/Lanarkshire for this season. I would hope it's not the case really, as a regional bottom tier in both leagues would be beneficial imo.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

First I've heard of the SFA dictating what a league can do at lower levels.  I'd expect that if the EoS wanted to regionalise the bottom tier in the future then they will.

Depends what you consider lower levels. The SFA have thrown some weight around when they've fancied it.

[LongTimeLurker]

All fine and good but the SFA's west region doesn't cover Ayrshire or Lanarkshire:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football-development/regions/west-region/

Edited May 24, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Dev]

38 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Depends what you consider lower levels. The SFA have thrown some weight around when they've fancied it.

It has sometimes been said on this forum that the SFA cannot tell the Leagues what to do e.g. something truly important and relevant to the Pyramid such as it hasn't insisted on automatic promotion/relegation between the SPFL and the LL/HL.

If any Tier 6 league chooses to operate two conferences at the same Tier (beneath Tier 6) what is the problem? We've all seen that it can work very well indeed. Indeed it is happening next season in the EoS and the WoS. Did they need to obtain SFA permission? Next season the conferences will exist at Tier 7 so what's the problem with the same idea continuing at a lower Tier in future?

Edited May 24, 2021 by Dev
errors

[FairWeatherFan]

33 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

In response to the proposal to change the conferences to Ayrshire/Glasgow/Lanarkshire for this season. I would hope it's not the case really, as a regional bottom tier in both leagues would be beneficial imo.

 

I think what has been said is more to do with the specific problem of Conferences. However, I don't really have a problem with it. Look at who the WoSFL are now getting as applicant clubs and the recent discussion on this thread over who actually has a viable ground that could apply.

Instead of the gradual erosion of amateur football in particular, the WoSFL and EoSFL should probably look to formalising something with the amateur leagues in their area. If the bottom level becomes an unworkable number for a single division then Conferences could be used.

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Depends what you consider lower levels. The SFA have thrown some weight around when they've fancied it.

I'll treat that with a pinch of salt.  I can't comment on what the WoS asked of the SFA, or even why they asked in the first place, but I am not sure what business it is of the SFA if a league wanted to implement regional divisions below tier 6.   We all know the SFA refused to sanction Conferences at tier 6 for the WoS, that was to do with the JPP and resources, according to them.

If the EoS wanted to regionalise tier 9 (Third Division) in future, why would they even ask the SFA in the first place?

 

[Burnieman]

36 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Instead of the gradual erosion of amateur football in particular, the WoSFL and EoSFL should probably look to formalising something with the amateur leagues in their area. If the bottom level becomes an unworkable number for a single division then Conferences could be used.

The problem you have with having an arrangement with amateur leagues is that no member club would want to be relegated from senior football to amateur football.

Until the grade distinction is removed (like England in 1974), then I don't think you're going to see any formal link-up.  The senior leagues will always be open to applications from amatuer clubs, so is there any need for a formal link?

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'll treat that with a pinch of salt.  I can't comment on what the WoS asked of the SFA, or even why they asked in the first place, but I am not sure what business it is of the SFA if a league wanted to implement regional divisions below tier 6.   We all know the SFA refused to sanction Conferences at tier 6 for the WoS, that was to do with the JPP and resources, according to them.

If the EoS wanted to regionalise tier 9 (Third Division) in future, why would they even ask the SFA in the first place?

 

They've been sticking their beak in with the WOSFL the entire time. 

And why would anyone ask the SFA? There the ones that sanction the competitions. 

[Burnieman]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

They've been sticking their beak in with the WOSFL the entire time. 

And why would anyone ask the SFA? There the ones that sanction the competitions. 

They don't run the leagues though, the member clubs do. As long as the league body itself is sanctioned, then it is upto the members how they structure it.

The SFA may stick their beak in if it has a material impact on their administration eg. refusing all WoS clubs entry at tier 6 Conferences for the first season, or making sure tier 6 doesn't exceed 16 clubs, but otherwise I can see no reason why they would be interested in whether Tweedmouth Rangers played in a Third Division, or a Third Division South.

[Andy groundhopper]

Think if club A applied, saying they were sharing at club B, there are no arguments (usually) Plenty of groundshares work very well, are there many instances of the Bo'ness situation happening before ? and how did they end up ? Honesty would be the policy, get more respect that way.

[Sergeant Wilson]

17 hours ago, Spyro said:

 Earlston Rhymers.  

You've made them up!

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Think if club A applied, saying they were sharing at club B, there are no arguments (usually) Plenty of groundshares work very well, are there many instances of the Bo'ness situation happening before ? and how did they end up ?

It's a pretty contrived story... Club B move from juniors into senior pyramid. Club A from another - rival - town nearby move from amateurs to juniors, relocate to this town, groundsharing this facility (which is owned by a community trust not Club B), and agree to rename themself under Club B's umbrella. Club B get promoted higher up the senior pyramid. Juniors league collapses. Club A move into senior pyramid and rename themself once again. End result is 2 clubs from this town, using this ground, both in the senior pyramid, albeit significantly far apart (you're talking probably 3-4 tiers).

There are other town groundshares (QotS + Heston, Falkirk + 'Shire, Clyde + Cumbernauld, Stirling Albion + Stirling Uni) but backstory in Bo'ness must be unique.

Edited May 24, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[LongTimeLurker]

5 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

....Predict most interest next year will be from amateurs, not youths... based on suburban parts and provincial towns, not the city... from the northern part of the catchment, not the Lothians... and in greater numbers than before.

There are still some fair sized towns like Bannockburn, Dunblane, Alva/Hillfoots, Kinross and Cupar with no team above amateur so there's certainly scope for that on paper but I doubt there's many clubs that fit that description that would have a better home ground available than Letham on that timeline. If that application can't even make it to a vote by the membership because facilities are not viewed as sufficiently up to snuff it's difficult to see where these in greater numbers are going to come from in the short term. Hopefully the EoS keeps growing though.

Edited May 24, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Sergeant Wilson]

24 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

It's a pretty contrived story... Club B move from juniors into senior pyramid. Club A from another - rival - town nearby move from amateurs to juniors, relocate to this town, groundsharing this facility (which is owned by a community trust not Club B), and agree to rename themself under Club B's umbrella. Club B get promoted higher up the senior pyramid. Juniors league collapses. Club A move into senior pyramid and rename themself once again. End result is 2 clubs from this town, using this ground, both in the senior pyramid, albeit significantly far apart (you're talking probably 3-4 tiers).

There are other town groundshares (QotS + Heston, Falkirk + 'Shire, Clyde + Cumbernauld, Stirling Albion + Stirling Uni) but backstory in Bo'ness must be unique.

Falkirk and 'Shire are getting closer again.

[HibeeJibee]

Worth adding a town of Bo'ness size having 2 clubs is unusual but again not unknown.

Irvine has had 2 since forever but like Clydebank both play at similar levels. Kilsyth next season. Berwick. Larkhall had 2 until Royal Albert flitted to Stonehouse.

Does seem much more common up north tbf.

Edited May 24, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[Spyro]

59 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

You've made them up!

There’s a picture somewhere with me in one of their tops and my hair sprayed blue and white. I need to try and find it!

Didn’t realise the work that had been going on at Melrose though  Fitba on the hallowed turf! It’s no even real grass anymore! That must be  up there with the Irish football team playing on Croke Park for the rugby playing locals