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Moses McNeil

New clubs in the East of Scotland

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Question for those knowledgeable types here, how many WOS teams left the SJFA when they moved over and won’t be in the SJC?

Also what happens if a SJFA team ends up in the SPFL? Can Talbot or Pollok be in League One and still enter the SJC?

Genuinely can’t see much of a future for the Junior Cup unless it becomes an SFA Non League national tournament. Under its current format it’s pretty much a North and West tournament as the East teams left the SJFA and with it now being fitted around the WOS and SCC its only a matter of time before teams start withdrawing from it or field weakened teams as it will be come a distraction from the League with ties midweek. Unless the SJFA do something to bring in the teams outside their membership it’ll die a death by a thousand cuts as teams gradually withdraw from it.

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43 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Under existing SJFA rules EoS clubs are not allowed to be members of the SJFA. Only North Region, East Region, and WoSFL are allowed.

If the SJFA is going to exist beyond 2021, which they seem to be plodding on with. Then they're going to have to update that rule since the East Region won't exist anymore.

Yes, but LTL is raising hypothetical scenarios and putting ifs-and-buts out there about what will the EoS’s position be with regards to some of its clubs having SJFA membership and wishing to compete for the SJC.

So hypothetically I’m saying the EoS won’t give a hoot as long as it doesn’t conflict with their league schedule. 

And pathetically the SJFA are the ones that are devaluing their own super-duper cup competition. They’re the ones preventing it being a national competition by limiting it to certain regions in what’s basically become one long, drawn-out, foot-stamping tantrum towards the EoSFL.

Edited by 8MileBU

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40 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

It's only the grade enthusiasts that want to keep it. We have the south challenge cup I dont see the huge clammour for highland league teams and north juniors who never went far. Ok could say tayside but it's time to move on

Agreed.

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26 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

I’m not sure why you’re asking me that. I was only answering your previous question about whether the EoS would bend over backwards to let the incoming clubs compete for the SJC - Of course they won’t, but nor would I expect them to stand in the way of any club wishing to do so provided they can ensure it’s feasible and won’t conflict with their league schedule.

That's the thing though. Odds on it wouldn't be viewed as feasible and anyone suggesting it would simply get laughed at. The SJC is no longer the top dog competition for a seperate grade always taking priority over league fixtures that get arranged at short notice to fit around it. In a pyramid context it is now at the mercy of league fixture secretaries agreeing to leave a series of prime Saturday dates open for them when pyramid leagues have to draw their top tier league seasons to a close by late April/early May in time for end of season playoffs and have a 160+ entrants SCC to fit in along the way.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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6 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

And pathetically the SJFA are the ones that are devaluing their own super-duper cup competition. They’re the ones preventing it being a national competition by limiting it to certain regions in what’s basically become one long, drawn-out, foot-stamping tantrum towards the EoSFL.

Basically.

And this year will be too late even if they choose to open up their membership criteria. Which they have the chance to do since they have to amend the rule with the East Region no longer in existence. By the time they do that all the pyramid leagues will have had their AGMs and tied into their own competitions.

 

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23 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Question for those knowledgeable types here, how many WOS teams left the SJFA when they moved over and won’t be in the SJC?

53 https://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/west-region/clubs/

Although in the last little snippet by the SJFA COO he said there were 54 clubs in the WoSFL that are SJFA members. So maybe he's already counting Harthill Royal 🤔

23 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Also what happens if a SJFA team ends up in the SPFL? Can Talbot or Pollok be in League One and still enter the SJC?

Under existing SJFA rules they are no longer SJFA members. As SJFA have to change their membership criteria for the East Region going under they could change that.

31 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Unless the SJFA do something to bring in the teams outside their membership it’ll die a death by a thousand cuts as teams gradually withdraw from it.

There's already meant to be some discussion over a national non-league trophy for Tier 5 and below. It's just not a priority with COVID and getting settled league structures in place. The SJFA could try and take up that place since we've all seen the SFA's hands off approach* to things.

*except when they want to be a hindrance.

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There's already meant to be some discussion over a national non-league trophy for Tier 5 and below. It's just not a priority with COVID and getting settled league structures in place. The SJFA could try and take up that place since we've all seen the SFA's hands off approach* to things.
*except when they want to be a hindrance.


I’d like to see an all in Non league national cup brought in post Covid but I think it should come under the SFA not the SJFA, whether that’s the old SJC migrated across or a new cup is up for debate. The biggest thing is it needs to have sponsorship so it’s not costing clubs to compete (easier said than done). Might be nice to get the final at Hampden and televise it now the SFA own it, doesn’t matter if it’s full or empty, it’s nice for a non league team to get the big day out at the national stadium.

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Wouldn't be the Scottish Junior Cup, as I don't see a future for the SJFA, but a replacement national trophy. People talk about the South of Scotland Cup but I don't believe it captures the imagination of clubs and supporters. Maybe that will change but I'm not convinced.

A once great trophy indeed, and historically always will be.
However I think the devaluation just naturally goes hand-in-hand with the demise of the Juniors as a national grade. I personally can’t see any point in there still being an SJFA as a national body or a SJC given how little is left. 

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5 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 Might be nice to get the final at Hampden and televise it now the SFA own it, doesn’t matter if it’s full or empty, it’s nice for a non league team to get the big day out at the national stadium.

With the SFA owning Hampden there's no excuse for them not to at least try it. It gives them another event to sell. They should also be able to drum up a better sponsorship deal than the mix of part-time volunteers that run the non-league, who are probably more interested in getting sponsorships for their own clubs and leagues.

Could also tie the final (maybe semi finals) into the TV deal with BBC Scotland for the early rounds of the Scottish Cup. The early rounds have done alright ratings wise compared to the Championship & Challenge Cup games. Suggesting there is an audience for non-league games when there is something on the line.

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15 minutes ago, John S said:

.....People talk about the South of Scotland Cup but I don't believe it captures the imagination of clubs and supporters. Maybe that will change but I'm not convinced.

Agreed but it's probably going to take a few years for the junior vs senior tribalism to fade. Nobody that matters from the nonleague senior leagues side of things has been advocating merging the SCC and SJC. They were pushing the SCC harder than they really needed to this past season given the issues related to the pandemic. The SCC is their creation and the one they want to push.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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On 04/05/2021 at 19:57, Marten said:

Honestly... How many more times do people need to point out to you that it's the SJFA, and the SJFA alone, who decides if these clubs can stay members & participate in the SJC if they so want? It's perfectly allowed within EoS rules.

Careful now he'll put you on ignore so he doesn't have to "read any more of your moronic drivel" 😉

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Lowland league released a statement about rangers and Celtic b teams potentially being in lowland league next season

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56 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Lowland league released a statement about rangers and Celtic b teams potentially being in lowland league next season

It’s utterly disgusting.  If this is voted through the LL should instantly be removed from the pyramid.

Crushing this and ousting the board that have allowed things to come this far is the only reasonable action.  Anything short of that should result in any club voting this through to not see a single supporter through their gates ever again.  You stop being a local football club when you start wanting to be a training side for others to play against.

 

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Lowland league released a statement about rangers and Celtic b teams potentially being in lowland league next season
The bulk of the comments on the LL thread on this development are of the GTF variety.

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25 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

It’s utterly disgusting.  If this is voted through the LL should instantly be removed from the pyramid.

Crushing this and ousting the board that have allowed things to come this far is the only reasonable action.  Anything short of that should result in any club voting this through to not see a single supporter through their gates ever again.  You stop being a local football club when you start wanting to be a training side for others to play against.

George Fraser has certainly called this one wrong. The only boost to attendances will be to the lower end clubs that many feel are just in the LL temporarily until the pyramid has had the chance to play out. For Kelty, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, East Stirlingshire, & Berwick in particular that have strong supports there's going to be a fan backlash.

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2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That's the thing though. Odds on it wouldn't be viewed as feasible and anyone suggesting it would simply get laughed at. The SJC is no longer the top dog competition for a seperate grade always taking priority over league fixtures that get arranged at short notice to fit around it. In a pyramid context it is now at the mercy of league fixture secretaries agreeing to leave a series of prime Saturday dates open for them when pyramid leagues have to draw their top tier league seasons to a close by late April/early May in time for end of season playoffs and have a 160+ entrants SCC to fit in along the way.

I reckon you’re probably right, it wouldn’t be viewed as feasible and be laughed at. 

However, I’m still of the belief that the EoS wouldn’t stand in their way and would simply tell them “Your funeral” and to crack on if they can somehow find a way of scheduling it around their existing league and cup commitments. Would imagine there’d also be a wee reminder given that failure to meet said commitments due to SJC participation would likely result in points deductions, cup expulsion and fines.

2 hours ago, John S said:

Wouldn't be the Scottish Junior Cup, as I don't see a future for the SJFA, but a replacement national trophy. People talk about the South of Scotland Cup but I don't believe it captures the imagination of clubs and supporters. Maybe that will change but I'm not convinced.

Would agree with that. I think there’s room for a new national cup, perhaps only from tier 5 and below though Some kind of reimagining of the SJC if you like. 

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35 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

George Fraser has certainly called this one wrong. The only boost to attendances will be to the lower end clubs that many feel are just in the LL temporarily until the pyramid has had the chance to play out. For Kelty, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, East Stirlingshire, & Berwick in particular that have strong supports there's going to be a fan backlash.

It's sticking two fingers up to the EoS, WoS and SoS, particularly as it seems there's no change to one up/down as a result.  Didn't he learn anything from the reaction to the ESL?

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11 hours ago, Deanburn Dave said:
12 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:
Lowland league released a statement about rangers and Celtic b teams potentially being in lowland league next season

The bulk of the comments on the LL thread on this development are of the GTF variety.

Far from the first bizarre move by George Fraser and co. If the LL board prefer to operate with 18 moving forward (suspect they may be counting on Kelty going up to make it 16 + 2) then the extra places should have been filled by application to get the likes of Clydebank and Darvel in that missed out through null and void.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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11 hours ago, John S said:

Wouldn't be the Scottish Junior Cup, as I don't see a future for the SJFA, but a replacement national trophy. People talk about the South of Scotland Cup but I don't believe it captures the imagination of clubs and supporters. Maybe that will change but I'm not convinced.

Hey John S
I disagree about the change comment, I believe it can, well the potential is there, the south challenge cup can become bigger in terms of reputation.  I don't think its was portrayed that way due to the advertising of it in the past and the amount of teams participating in it and most of the teams being located in the East.

Lets put it this way with the WOSFL joining last year, the SCC already became a harder cup to win than the recent years of the Scottish Junior cup and the SCC can grab hold of the excitement of big days at home and away with teams traveling to and from West and East and South. Now you have possibly about 20 teams joining the Two associations this coming season, so again its looking like it will be bigger from, I'm sure, 147 to approx. 167 teams.

but it has to be done right, good advertising from the LL and all the clubs to stimulate the interest.

Could there be a Non league challenge cup, yeah sure it can and I'd definitely think it would be great but suppose its baby steps to make sure this pyramid becomes stronger and stable.

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11 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Careful now he'll put you on ignore so he doesn't have to "read any more of your moronic drivel" 😉

I'd see that as a compliment. :) 

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