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Moses McNeil

New clubs in the East of Scotland

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As much as people are frustrated at the idiocy of some and lack of progress in this process, remember only six years ago we went from a pyramid of 42 clubs to now having a pyramid of 216* clubs in 2020-21.



*Very Quick (and probably wrong) maths there.

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7 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Which is why I only mentioned it in relation to the SPFL playoff. The Lowland League has not until recently had to consider its boundaries as it was explicitly understood from the outset that the boundary used for the SPFL playoff was used for everything else. Which is why there has been years of interviews from both the Highland League and Lowland League representatives that everything Dundee northwards is the Highland League and South of Dundee is the Lowland League. Its also why when the Lowland League last put out an application for a vacancy the SPFL boundary line was used.

The EoS can accept who they like, take reserve sides for example. Reserve sides are barred from the Lowland League. If the Lowland League is having to consider the boundary line once more they may well set it in a revised set of rules, in the same way they did with the relegation rules last year to clarify the matter.

EDIT: Keep in mind its the Lowland League that sets the membership criteria. So if they set a boundary for themselves its entirely within their scope to reject a licensed EoSFL champion based on that. Chances are when it the LL pyramid rules get updated to the include the WoSFL it will include the same terminology.

image.png.59656445f32fc7d78e1aacb1c8e341fc.png

But you specifically stated that if the LL kept the boundary it would leave the "northern clubs" unsure of what to do.

It doesn't. The northern clubs can apply to the EOS if they so wish.

As for your edit, why would the EOS specifically state recently that they would accept Tayside applications if they thought the LL would block those teams from being promoted? Especially as both leagues have the same Secretary. And given the current controversy over Kelty being denied the chance of promotion and the SPFL2 statement accusing the LL of breaking the pyramid rules are they really going to stop a licensed team moving up the leagues?

 

 

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If the LL accept clubs up to Brechin and Montrose by signing off on a change to the Club 42 playoff rule, the awkward part for the EoS would be explaining why top Tayside clubs like Lochee United and Carnoustie Panmure that think they were blocked from EoS entry in tier 6 conferences back in early 2018 would now have to start at tier 8. The Midland League scenario would solve that and would also help to keep travel distances sensible.

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3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If the LL accept clubs up to Brechin and Montrose by signing off on a change to the Club 42 playoff rule, the awkward part for the EoS would be explaining why top Tayside clubs like Lochee United and Carnoustie Panmure that think they were blocked from EoS entry in tier 6 conferences back in early 2018 would now have to start at tier 8. The Midland League scenario would solve that and would also help to keep travel distances sensible.

Why would that be awkward? They "think they were blocked " by their interpretation of the 2018 rules. This is 2020, different rules apply.

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Way too much was being made of the Tay Bridge boundary back in 2018 and 2019 in EoS circles when the reality was that it only applied to the Club 42 relegation scenario and didn't apply to EoS entry.

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14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If the LL accept clubs up to Brechin and Montrose by signing off on a change to the Club 42 playoff rule, the awkward part for the EoS would be explaining why top Tayside clubs like Lochee United and Carnoustie Panmure that think they were blocked from EoS entry in tier 6 conferences back in early 2018 would now have to start at tier 8. The Midland League scenario would solve that and would also help to keep travel distances sensible.

Again we are linking the LL boundary rule with applications to the EOS when they are two completely separate issues.

It was rumoured that Carnoustie were told they couldn't apply a couple of years ago. Does anyone actually know if this is actually true? It certainly doesn't fit in with what we are told now.

There's no need for a Midland League. If teams can't travel to Tayside how would they cope if they are promoted to SPFL2?

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3 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

...It was rumoured that Carnoustie were told they couldn't apply a couple of years ago. Does anyone actually know if this is actually true? It certainly doesn't fit in with what we are told now...

A lot could depend on whether they were told that verbally in an informal conversation or through an official written communication.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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1 hour ago, patriot1 said:

But you specifically stated that if the LL kept the boundary it would leave the "northern clubs" unsure of what to do.

It doesn't. The northern clubs can apply to the EOS if they so wish.

As for your edit, why would the EOS specifically state recently that they would accept Tayside applications if they thought the LL would block those teams from being promoted? Especially as both leagues have the same Secretary. And given the current controversy over Kelty being denied the chance of promotion and the SPFL2 statement accusing the LL of breaking the pyramid rules are they really going to stop a licensed team moving up the leagues?

The full quote around that was:

Quote

If the Lowland League retain the existing boundary. It will likely see the trickle of Southern clubs from the East Region apply to the EoSFL, with those Northern left uncertain of what to do.

If this year the Lowland League choose to keep the boundary the same for the SPFL playoff, why in a year's time would they let the issue rise again by being undercut by the EoSFL. They could simply change their membership criteria to include the boundary line for registered grounds.

At which point its a case of a Northern East Region club can freely apply to the EoSFL. Just never be promoted to the Lowland League. Which is the case for reserve sides.

The bit about the edit. The Lowland League are free to change their membership critiera. They already changed the rules around relegation to clarify them for 2019/20. They wouldn't be breaching any pyramid rules in doing so, as the Lowland League pyramid playoff rules simply states Membership Criteria. You mention Kelty and i'll mention Brechin. If they end up voting against Brechin City's wish to change the boundary, why would the Lowland League then let in clubs from the same area come up from below?

David Baxter might be the secretary for both, but its the members that ultimately decide these things. Only takes 9/16 to do so. Next season the LL are probably going to deal with two relegations from the Lowland League to get back to 16 clubs. Which will see the WoSFL, EoSFL, and SoSFL seek an additional promotion opportunities to make 2up/2down the norm. At the same time that's happening does the EoSFL also want to bring up the boundary all over again by accepting Tayside clubs.

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The LL could change their membership rules to prevent Tayside teams being promoted from the EOS. And you're right this wouldn't break any pyramid playoff rules. But it would break the spirit of the playoff. There's no point George Fraser publicly railing against Kelty being denied the chance of promotion if the LL are going to do the same to Tayside teams. 

While it is up to the LL clubs to change the membership rules why would the EOS confirm that Tayside teams can apply if they suspect that they will soon be barred from promotion to the LL?

Really what I'm trying to do here is put an end to the Tayside junior teams situation being linked to the LL/HL boundary line when it's not. How much time did we all waste putting up maps of Luncarty and Scotland and debating the latitude of the Tay when it turns out none of that mattered? 

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On 23/05/2020 at 15:30, FairWeatherFan said:

BSC Glasgow started in Glasgow, groundshare(s) fell through and Alloa ended up their best option. That's not something that can be predicted.

At the top of the pyramid you've got the likes of Aberdeen moving from Pittodrie to Westhill which is about the same sort of distance if not more than some of St Cadocs, Rossvale, and Edinburgh South are having to deal with while setting up something more permanent.

The really sad thing is that they seem unable to get a suitable ground in Scotland's largest city.

 

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5 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

... While it is up to the LL clubs to change the membership rules why would the EOS confirm that Tayside teams can apply if they suspect that they will soon be barred from promotion to the LL? ...

If the LL are really being threatened with having no League Cup and Challenge Cup entrants over this as George Fraser recently stated then odds on they'll agree to the boundary shift.

The apparent change in tack from the EoS where Tayside is concerned when explaining Luncarty's entry makes sense given that backdrop.  The EoS can claim the other 15 north of the club 42 boundary clubs could also have applied this season as well and had their applications go to a vote of the membership.

What would be interesting is how keen clubs from south of the Forth would be to vote clubs like Brechin Vics and Forfar Albion into the EoS and whether they might prefer the Midland League scenario be pursued instead regardless of whether the LL or HL is involved. The EoS posture in PWG meetings was that there was a need for a WoS and a Tayside league after all.

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Or the LL might call their bluff and say "Planning to run your League Cup group stage with 38/39 clubs, are you"?

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New Clubs in the EoS.

Regardless of the Rules of the LL and HL the EoS makes its' own rules and can amend them from time to time if the clubs decide that it is necessary and appropriate.

This means that the EoS clubs can accept any club e.g. Luncarty is outside the usual area covered. Previously it was Kinnoull, and before that it was Jeanfield Swifts which were perceived as being outside the usual EoS area. Things change.

With regard to the majority of the East Region Juniors located to the north of the Tay Bridge then it is a fair question to ask whether or not these clubs would, in any case, still be interested in joining the current EoS. If they are interested in the idea of joining the Pyramid with a view to becoming Licenced, with the possibility of being promoted to a Tier 5 league, then their best bet is surely to stick with the HL Pyramid. If not then just form a Tayside Senior league which fits into the HL Pyramid. If clubs don't wish to go for Licencing then it doesn't matter that they're part of the HL Pyramid as they won't be travelling outside their own patch in any case - unless it is to play against the North Juniors, as they do at present, in cup games.

Most current HL clubs are to the north-east i.e. Aberdeenshire and Moray which are not hard to get to from Dundee, let alone, more rural Angus. Also, the HL is weaker in terms of the numbers of clubs which would be competing with them. There is far greater strength in depth already in the Lowland Pyramid and that will become significantly stronger again when the WoS starts to promote clubs into the LL.

We won't know if north of Tay Bridge clubs might be accepted by the EoS clubs until they apply. Luncarty has had a positive response but they are close to Perth, which is now probably accepted as part of EoS territory?

If north of Tay Bridge clubs apply to and are accepted by the EoS clubs in future it needs [a] them to apply and the EoS clubs to accept them. However, if the LL decides to stick with the current boundary against the HL then any clubs from north of the Tay Bridge which may be accepted into the EoS do so knowing that, as things stand, they could then get a licence but they wouldn't have a route up to Tier 5 unless they switched to a league based in the HL territory.

Is it really likely that current EoS clubs would accept any applications from current north of Tay Bridge ERJFA clubs which are thought to have the potential to win the EoS and, therefore, under current LL Rules, would be unable to enter the play-offs for promotion to the LL let alone be promoted to that league. In other words why would the current EoS clubs accept a strong north of Tay Bridge club which may block promotion from the EoS to the LL?

The likes of the weaker SPFL 2 clubs from north of the Tay Bridge can shout as loud as they like but, unless the current LL clubs vote to amend their rules such clubs cannot join this league. When WoS clubs move up into the LL this situation will be even harder to change. Why would they wish to travel to e.g. Brechin, on a rainy mid-winter Tuesday night?

Edited by Dev
... Edit is not responding accurately!

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9 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

The really sad thing is that they seem unable to get a suitable ground in Scotland's largest city.

Suspect it would soon get sorted out at a 3G cage if they were given a deadline when this sort of setup gets you entry level and the ability to move into the SPFL as long as your floodlights are up to snuff:

Why bother though if you don't need to under the rules and have no regular committed fanbase to speak of?

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On 23/05/2020 at 20:27, gogsy said:

You mean the post where you claimed the current Beith juniors  were a team the had a pre 1938 history and had three seasons in the SPL  in the 1920's when the club was formed in 1938?:lol: 

"We have decided that we are BEITH JUNIOR. We always have been and always will be"

Forgive my pedantry , but fairly sure there was no ' SPL  in the 1920's'.....

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Or the LL might call their bluff and say "Planning to run your League Cup group stage with 38/39 clubs, are you"?

It is being voted on at the LL AGM, I cannot see that a majority of clubs will vote to move/amend the line given what has been going on, and the SPFL's complete disregard for the play-offs.

 

Neither do I think the SPFL will do anything re entry of LL and HL clubs to the 2 cups, Brechin wont be going down, so is it really an issue the SPFL will be concerned about and causing a stooshie over at this current time.

 

As for EoS entry for Tayside, when you have Larry fae Lochee accusing the office bearers of lying, I'm not sure there's too much goodwill floating around.

 

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1 hour ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Forgive my pedantry , but fairly sure there was no ' SPL  in the 1920's'.....

That was definitely a bizarre fuss about not very much. Beith FC played in the short lived third division of the SFL:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925–26_Scottish_Division_Three

Same ground, colours and nickname as Beith Juniors and when one stopped having been turfed out of an SFL reserve league the other soon started up in its place:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beith_F.C.

So Beith would be well within their rights to claim an 1875 founding date. 

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3 hours ago, patriot1 said:

The LL could change their membership rules to prevent Tayside teams being promoted from the EOS. And you're right this wouldn't break any pyramid playoff rules. But it would break the spirit of the playoff. There's no point George Fraser publicly railing against Kelty being denied the chance of promotion if the LL are going to do the same to Tayside teams. 

While it is up to the LL clubs to change the membership rules why would the EOS confirm that Tayside teams can apply if they suspect that they will soon be barred from promotion to the LL?

Really what I'm trying to do here is put an end to the Tayside junior teams situation being linked to the LL/HL boundary line when it's not. How much time did we all waste putting up maps of Luncarty and Scotland and debating the latitude of the Tay when it turns out none of that mattered? 

Quote

The Highland League boundaries now include anywhere north of the Tay, so the likes of Broughty Athletic, Lochee United or Montrose Roselea could be tempted.

Quote

All applicants must have a Scottish FA Club License as at 31 March, 2019 and have its registered ground within the SLFL catchment area, which is below the line of latitude that runs through the mid-point of the Tay Bridge.

Most people on here have known that the line of latitude is only used in reference to the SPFL pyramid playoff rules. Its always been seen as a loophole. One that would allow Luncarty in without grievance. Especially once it was known they could be applying. My rememberance, likely from you, was that Orkney was used as an example and that the SPFL were looking to do away with HL/LL boundary line entirely.

Since then we've heard about the pressue from the SPFL on the Lowland League. With the responsibility falling to the Lowland League to change the boundary, not the SPFL. They have suggested they have been pressured to do so, rather than actually wanting to do so. With everyting that has happened between the LL/SPFL and it coming to a membership vote it could go either way. With only the league champion competing in the SPFL League Cup and 4/16 in the SPFL Challenge Cup its only a minority of clubs impacted by the SPFL's 'pressure'. The status quo just needs 9 clubs that don't fancy trips to Brechin and the increased chances of relegation due to the Lowland League catchment area increasing with nothing in return.

I obviously wasn't a part of the EoS AGM. But how much of this topic actually arose around the singular topic of Luncarty's application? And  how much of it could be considered actual promotion of getting additional Tayside clubs to apply to the EoSFL?

As for the spirit of the playoff. The quotes above are from a quick look for the Lowland League application advert and something from the Highland League. To help show that the spirit from both leagues is that the SPFL pyramid playoff boundary, is the boundary for both leagues.

 

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On 31/05/2020 at 14:59, FairWeatherFan said:

Most people on here have known that the line of latitude is only used in reference to the SPFL pyramid playoff rules. Its always been seen as a loophole. One that would allow Luncarty in without grievance. Especially once it was known they could be applying. My rememberance, likely from you, was that Orkney was used as an example and that the SPFL were looking to do away with HL/LL boundary line entirely.

Since then we've heard about the pressue from the SPFL on the Lowland League. With the responsibility falling to the Lowland League to change the boundary, not the SPFL. They have suggested they have been pressured to do so, rather than actually wanting to do so. With everyting that has happened between the LL/SPFL and it coming to a membership vote it could go either way. With only the league champion competing in the SPFL League Cup and 4/16 in the SPFL Challenge Cup its only a minority of clubs impacted by the SPFL's 'pressure'. The status quo just needs 9 clubs that don't fancy trips to Brechin and the increased chances of relegation due to the Lowland League catchment area increasing with nothing in return.

I obviously wasn't a part of the EoS AGM. But how much of this topic actually arose around the singular topic of Luncarty's application? And  how much of it could be considered actual promotion of getting additional Tayside clubs to apply to the EoSFL?

As for the spirit of the playoff. The quotes above are from a quick look for the Lowland League application advert and something from the Highland League. To help show that the spirit from both leagues is that the SPFL pyramid playoff boundary, is the boundary for both leagues.

 

 

I can't see that existing Lowland and East of Scotland League clubs, will vote for a change in the boundary, regardless of the ongoing arguments (and pressure) by various parties.

In my opinion, the (north of) Tayside Juniors should form a 'senior' Midland League, and apply to the SFA for tier 6 entry to the pyramid, in 2021/22.  The structure of Scottish football will probably change radically within the next 5 years (maximum), and (together) the Dundee and Angus  SPFL alongside the  'senior' Midland League clubs, would therefore be in a stronger (united) position to influence the future format of the pyramid.

Currently none of the north Tayside clubs are licensed, and not many would reach the required standards, very quickly IMO.

 

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