New clubs in the East of Scotland

[themillerman1979]

49 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

For those that haven't seen it:

Can I first of all pass on my best wishes to our committee, coaches, players, supporters, sponsors and advertisers at what is a difficult time for everybody having to cope with the Covid-19 pandemic and thank you to all those who are working on the frontline to help us, wherever you may be working.

Last night saw a decision taken by the Management Committee of the East Region that sees the 2019/20 season null and void, meaning that no team will be awarded the title in any of the four divisions. The decision is difficult to take for us as a club, from a season that has been particularly tough with a number of obstacles off the park having to be overcome as well as maintaining the top position in the Super League North.

I will not go in to the specifics of the decision other than it has been my consistent belief that declaring a season null and void is not an acceptable decision in any league but at our level it is made worse because a lot of players play for the love of the game and not to award a title after the majority of the season is wrong.

I would like to go on record as thanking our hardworking committee for their efforts during the season as well as Manager Phil McGuire, his coaching staff and the players. I am proud of every one of you and the way we have dealt with everything that has been thrown at us, since the beginning of July last year, in the right way. I would also like to thank Libby, Graham and Garry as well as the rest of everybody associated with Back Onside as we couldn’t have got through the season without your backing.

Where we go from here I am not sure, there several things going on regarding the league structure in the East but with the West Region clubs leaving the Junior game for the newly formed West of Scotland League, being ran by the Lowland League, I really have fears for the continued existence of the Junior game and as a result we will need to look at which direction is best for the club both in reality and metaphorically.

The background politics that, in my opinion, are not helping the Junior game, are not the reason I got involved in Junior football, whether I want to be involved in that is now questionable and something that I need to consider.

Meantime I will endeavour to keep you all up to date with the format for next season as far as I can.

Once again thank you to everybody for the efforts and support during the season.

Mark Johnson
General Manager

Understandably frustrated given the decisions and another reason why pulling all the organisations together is the right thing to do.

Obviously a club disillusioned by what’s left of Junior Football. As I said earlier, they are an example of a club that nobody seems to care about. They’d be travelling less if the Lowland League was their ultimate destination (and why shouldn’t that be the target for a club who reached the pinnacle of the Junior game) but because of the current dividing line it’s deemed acceptable to ask them to work their way through a league that will provide them with 50% more distance to travel.

 

as I say, I can see why some teams are  disillusioned by it all. Even more so if the EOSFL are selective in the relaxation of the line for certain clubs but dismissive of  doing so for others.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

Understandably frustrated given the decisions and another reason why pulling all the organisations together is the right thing to do.

Obviously a club disillusioned by what’s left of Junior Football. As I said earlier, they are an example of a club that nobody seems to care about. They’d be travelling less if the Lowland League was their ultimate destination (and why shouldn’t that be the target for a club who reached the pinnacle of the Junior game) but because of the current dividing line it’s deemed acceptable to ask them to work their way through a league that will provide them with 50% more distance to travel.

 

as I say, I can see why some teams are  disillusioned by it all. Even more so if the EOSFL are selective in the relaxation of the line for certain clubs but dismissive of  doing so for others.

 

One club and no others. And we don't even know if they'll pass the membership vote.

[themillerman1979]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

One club and no others. And we don't even know if they'll pass the membership vote.

Why no others?? It only needs one to set a precedent for others.

Let’s see how the voting goes but signs appear positive that the first test of the boundary line will be favourable to the team testing it.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

Why no others?? It only needs one to set a precedent for others.

Let’s see how the voting goes but signs appear positive that the first test of the boundary line will be favourable to the team testing it.

Except they aren't testing it. The EoSFL does not have a boundary line.

And they aren't the first at least one North of Tay club was told not to apply back in 2018.

[themillerman1979]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Except they aren't testing it. The EoSFL does not have a boundary line.

And they aren't the first at least one North of Tay club was told not to apply back in 2018.

So if no line applies to EOSFL why tell someone not to apply.

Your statement alone tells us the EOSFL have rejected teams north of the HL/LL line before but are now considering a team from beyond it. At what point do the EOSFL say no? Is it Luncarty, Lochee, Forfar, Carnoustie??

The fact is, a team North of the HL/LL boundary wants to play in the feeder leagues to get to the LL as opposed to the HL, despite the route to the LL being blocked by virtue of their Tier 5 catchment area.

What’s stopping Lochee, Carnoustie, Broughty, Downfield etc etc doing the same and simply confirming they are ok with not being promoted to the LL?

And I appreciate the fact is the EOSFL members have to vote on it. But why would they deem Luncarty ok but Let’s say Coupar  Angus, 15 mins more in terms of travel distance not ok? 

For me it’s simple. You’re either North of the HL/LL or you’re South of. There’s no grey area. As soon as we open the line up to interpretation for one, it’s an invitation to expand on that interpretation for others. 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by themillerman1979

[Black & Red Socks]

So if no line applies to EOSFL why tell someone not to apply.
Your statement alone tells us the EOSFL have rejected teams north of the HL/LL line before but are now considering a team from beyond it. At what point do the EOSFL say no? Is it Luncarty, Lochee, Forfar, Carnoustie??
The fact is, a team North of the HL/LL boundary wants to play in the feeder leagues to get to the LL as opposed to the HL, despite the route to the LL being blocked by virtue of their Tier 5 catchment area.
What’s stopping Lochee, Carnoustie, Broughty, Downfield etc etc doing the same and simply confirming they are ok with not being promoted to the LL?
And I appreciate the fact is the EOSFL members have to vote on it. But why would they deem Luncarty ok but Let’s say Coupar  Angus, 15 mins more in terms of travel distance not ok? 
For me it’s simple. You’re either North of the HL/LL or you’re South of. There’s no grey area. As soon as we open the line up to interpretation for one, it’s an invitation to expand on that interpretation for others. 
 

I think you’re a man, if not by deed then certainly by word, who is keen to see Tayside clubs in a Lowland League feeder despite your earlier protestations. I may be wrong of course and I’m sure you will tell me I am so I’ll accept your further protestations before they come. However, I’ll remain disappointed that you can’t see that most every rule has an exception and quite clearly a team from a town split by the LL-HL dividing line is it. If you believe by their acceptance a precedence is being set for teams some 10, 15, 20, 30 or more minutes from that line to be accepted too then, by the spirit of the ‘law’ if not by the word of it, you are entirely wrong, or certainly should be.

[AlanCamelonfan]

10 hours ago, themillerman1979 said:

So if no line applies to EOSFL why tell someone not to apply.

Your statement alone tells us the EOSFL have rejected teams north of the HL/LL line before but are now considering a team from beyond it. At what point do the EOSFL say no? Is it Luncarty, Lochee, Forfar, Carnoustie??

The fact is, a team North of the HL/LL boundary wants to play in the feeder leagues to get to the LL as opposed to the HL, despite the route to the LL being blocked by virtue of their Tier 5 catchment area.

What’s stopping Lochee, Carnoustie, Broughty, Downfield etc etc doing the same and simply confirming they are ok with not being promoted to the LL?

And I appreciate the fact is the EOSFL members have to vote on it. But why would they deem Luncarty ok but Let’s say Coupar  Angus, 15 mins more in terms of travel distance not ok? 

For me it’s simple. You’re either North of the HL/LL or you’re South of. There’s no grey area. As soon as we open the line up to interpretation for one, it’s an invitation to expand on that interpretation for others. 

 

Why are you not getting this. Carnoustie were already told no and luncarty has the line right through the village 

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, Black & Red Socks said:

I think you’re a man, if not by deed then certainly by word, who is keen to see Tayside clubs in a Lowland League feeder despite your earlier protestations.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt around these sort of issues. Yet this comment and the context provided by Carnoustie's statement had my weak-ass Spidey senses on light up like a Xmas tree.

The ERSJFA have their meeting on Thursday night. Declare the season null and void, begin talking about season formats for next year. Especially with the issues caused by 8 of their members being "8 applicants" to the EoSFL.

The next day a 10+ year old poster makes their first comment in the EoS forum asking "So are the rumoured 8 No applicants to the EOSFL officially known yet? Be interesting to see who will be left in the East Juniors after the applicants are accepted or rejected. " When it has been known for the couple of weeks that there are 9 applicants and its easy to find on the thread who they are.

The poster also doesn't require any explanation over where the HL/LL boundary falls and where Luncarty fit. Then goes on to play devil's advocate.

[Stoosh83]

I personally dont see the issue with letting any team who were east region juniors into the EOS. I also think it will happen eventually, and it will bring a greater competitive league to our association 

[8MileBU]

40 minutes ago, Stoosh83 said:

I personally dont see the issue with letting any team who were east region juniors into the EOS. I also think it will happen eventually, and it will bring a greater competitive league to our association 

Agreed.

[themillerman1979]

2 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Why are you not getting this. Carnoustie were already told no and luncarty has the line right through the village 

I get I completely.

The HL/LL rule that someone pointed out says location of the Ground, or word to that effect.

If you’re telling me that if the village in which the ground is situated is divided by the line and, in that case it’s acceptable to be flexible then agreed it’s a non-starter.

 

as for other points, I would absolutely like to see Tayside teams find a home in the Pyramid. 
And, basing it purely on travel distance I see the point in them wanting to play the teams in the Lowland League set up.

But equally, I see the obvious issue with the amount of teams already in this set up, so understand why getting a more balanced set up North is the preference of others.

[themillerman1979]

1 hour ago, Stoosh83 said:

I personally dont see the issue with letting any team who were east region juniors into the EOS. I also think it will happen eventually, and it will bring a greater competitive league to our association 

That’s where I’m basing my suggestions.

not saying for one minute the league in its entirety should be brought in. But what if any other team above this HL/LL applied. Surely they should be considered if there isn’t a rule to the contrary and the EOSFL show that they are willing to be flexible (yes I know it’s only a little flexibility for now) with Luncarty.

If it boils down to distance then some fife teams benefit from playing Dundee teams more than Luncarty.

And I’ll go on record as saying I Am not connected with any Tayside junior club or committee. But I have always watched Junior Football and more recently EOSFL football as well and find it all interesting. Even if I were connected, surely anyone can play devils advocate if the questions being asked and opinions set out are based in fact and have balanced counter opinions.

[PastyMan]

17 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

I get I completely.

The HL/LL rule that someone pointed out says location of the Ground, or word to that effect.

If you’re telling me that if the village in which the ground is situated is divided by the line and, in that case it’s acceptable to be flexible then agreed it’s a non-starter.

 

as for other points, I would absolutely like to see Tayside teams find a home in the Pyramid. 
And, basing it purely on travel distance I see the point in them wanting to play the teams in the Lowland League set up.

But equally, I see the obvious issue with the amount of teams already in this set up, so understand why getting a more balanced set up North is the preference of others.

Surely though including Tayside teams within the Lowland League would increase travel distance for every other club? or am I missing something?
I guess someone would have to calculate the current entire mileage for the Lowland League and compare it with the net effect of adding a team currently north of the line.... we might need a longer lockdown

 

[Guest]

The mileage for Tayside teams to go north is the same mileage, if not less if they were to come south.

The travel distance for every other club isn the LL would increase, considerably.

The boundary line is fine where it is, there is no need to move it. If Tayside clubs come into the pyramid they should play HL not LL.

It is that clear and simple.

Moving it would serve no benefit to anyone else barring tayside clubs who would then travel the exact distances south as they would north. Moving it north increases every club in the eos travel distances, considerably.

[LongTimeLurker]

23 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

...If it boils down to distance then some fife teams benefit from playing Dundee teams more than Luncarty....

Suspect it will all boil down to whether Brechin City and the other Angus SPFL clubs are able to get a rule change made to the Club 42 playoff. Seems a bit mental that some people would see Luncarty as OK but Carnoustie, Broughty and Lochee as absurdly distant but that perception does appear to be strongly held in some quarters.

[themillerman1979]

15 minutes ago, PastyMan said:

Surely though including Tayside teams within the Lowland League would increase travel distance for every other club? or am I missing something?
I guess someone would have to calculate the current entire mileage for the Lowland League and compare it with the net effect of adding a team currently north of the line.... we might need a longer lockdown

 

You could be right. I’m sure someone would know.

And agree that it would probably mean increased travelling for some (probably most to be fair) but as I said earlier not for others.

So understand why the EOSFL members vote as it’s different for each individual.

But the other angle is the EOSFL are saying to, for example, Lochee Utd, that you should travel to Highland League football as we don’t want to ask our teams to travel that far (assuming we’re agree it’s nothing to do with the HL/LL) rule.

But that unfairly punishes Lochee Utd as they have to now travel an extra 50%, interns of mileage on the clock, each season to play competitive football.

 

[themillerman1979]

13 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

The mileage for Tayside teams to go north is the same mileage, if not less if they were to come south.

The travel distance for every other club isn the LL would increase, considerably.

The boundary line is fine where it is, there is no need to move it. If Tayside clubs come into the pyramid they should play HL not LL.

It is that clear and simple.

Moving it would serve no benefit to anyone else barring tayside clubs who would then travel the exact distances south as they would north. Moving it north increases every club in the eos travel distances, considerably.

G4Mac, So does that mean Luncarty should or shouldn’t be allowed in?

 

[themillerman1979]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Suspect it will all boil down to whether Brechin City and the other Angus SPFL clubs are able to get a rule change made to the Club 42 playoff. Seems a bit mental that some people would see Luncarty as OK but Carnoustie, Broughty and Lochee as absurdly distant but that perception does appear to be strongly held in some quarters.

Agreed, I’m sure any line move will be subject of an SPFL challenge as opposed to a lower leagues challenge.

thats where I am. By the time you reach Luncarty, if travelling from Edinburgh. A car leaving at the same time heading to Dundee would only be 10 miles or so away from Lochee Utd or Lochee Harps ground.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by themillerman1979

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

But the other angle is the EOSFL are saying to, for example, Lochee Utd, that you should travel to Highland League football as we don’t want to ask our teams to travel that far (assuming we’re agree it’s nothing to do with the HL/LL) rule.

But that unfairly punishes Lochee Utd as they have to now travel an extra 50%, interns of mileage on the clock, each season to play competitive football.

Think you'll find most people would see the Highland League take on the 3x feeder system that the Lowland League will now have as a starting point.

HL = Tayside, North and NCL

LL = EoS, SoS, WoS

Then work from there. So nobody is asking Lochee to add 50% of anything. They and everyone else in Tayside would be in the same league they look like they will be in from 2020-21 with the ability to get licenced. With promotion and relegation between the HL and feeder leagues nobody knows what the HL would look like by the time any Tayside team would get promoted there.

Also comparing the current HL/LL travel issues is largely irrelevant on that basis. Since nobody is negotiating entry to the HL pyramid right now. The earliest any Tayside club would make the Highland League would be 2022-23. A Tayside club isn't getting into the EoS this year. So they aren't getting into the Lowland League until 2024-25.

Anybody want to look into their crystal ball and tell me what Scottish football would look like in the next 2-4 + years.

 

[themillerman1979]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Think you'll find most people would see the Highland League take on the 3x feeder system that the Lowland League will now have as a starting point.

HL = Tayside, North and NCL

LL = EoS, SoS, WoS

Then work from there. So nobody is asking Lochee to add 50% of anything. They and everyone else in Tayside would be in the same league they look like they will be in from 2020-21 with the ability to get licenced. With promotion and relegation between the HL and feeder leagues nobody knows what the HL would look like by the time any Tayside team would get promoted there.

Also comparing the current HL/LL travel issues is largely irrelevant on that basis. Since nobody is negotiating entry to the HL pyramid right now. The earliest any Tayside club would make the Highland League would be 2022-23. A Tayside club isn't getting into the EoS this year. So they aren't getting into the Lowland League until 2024-25.

Anybody want to look into their crystal ball and tell me what Scottish football would look like in the next 2-4 + years.

 

If that’s the case then that makes perfect sense. And would certainly be a sensible way forward.

First time of seeing this laid out and looks like a good option.

That may also prove a more sensible route for teams like St Andrews & Jeanfield who could see it as an easier route to Tier 5. But would that open up another argument from the HL teams saying “you’re South of the Line”?? Haha!! 
 

Thanks for the input. As I say, keen to see how teams vote in relation to Luncarty and also watching with interest at how the East Juniors reorganise after the latest exodus.