New clubs in the East of Scotland

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

G4Mac were Brechin supposedly looking to go to the Lowland League if relegated?

In terms of the "line" it seems that the EOSFL is not focusing on that line in considering an application from North of it. If they can consider it, would it not open the doors for others?

The rule only applies to Brechin. Or club 42 from the SPFL as it determines which league they are relegated to. And yes, Brechin have looked to change it.

The EoS are not technically bound by the boundary rule, but apply the spirit of it as obviously ignoring it causes additional issues further along. Which is why they've informed at least one Tayside club against applying previously. And are now able to consider Luncarty without outright rejecting them.

Luncarty as a club are ultimately an anomaly where the town is split by the boundary. If they ever decided to move ground it could be to the South of the line causing issues if there was a hard enforcement of the boundary. You would then have to force them to change leagues.

Or if they ever needed to groundshare for a period of time that ground is likely to be South of the line as they're closer.

These are not situations that apply to any other club.

[themillerman1979]

1 minute ago, Marten said:

These are completely different cases though. Dundee city and the towns of Blairgowrie & Coupar Angus are all fully north of the line. Blairgowrie & Coupar Angus aren't even close. The village of Luncarty has the line literally running through it, with the majority actually being south of it.

Btw, I'm pretty sure that Blairgowrie & Coupar Angus would rather be with the Tayside teams than the Perth teams anyway if they were given the choice.

You could well be right, don't really know much about either club, was just using a few PH postcode examples and assuming they gathered their players etc from local areas and Perth.

And you're either North of the line or South of it. It's black and white in terms of that. I'm merely pointing out that Luncarty being approved would be to approve a team North of the HL/LL line. Not sure distance North or distance South can be applied if it's a Rule. That would simply be a discussion point involved in the relaxation reasons.

All that said, I can understand why Luncarty seem a sensible club to relax any such rule for. 

My point is, they've made a relaxation for Luncarty, what's to say that St Andrews, Glenrothes, Kirkcaldy or Kennoway wouldn't support an application from say Lochee Utd who would present a shorter (in some cases significantly shorter) journey for them than heading to Luncarty? And also have the potential for bigger crowds perhaps. 

Again, looking at it from both sides of the Line it's interesting.

 

[themillerman1979]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The rule only applies to Brechin. Or club 42 from the SPFL as it determines which league they are relegated to. And yes, Brechin have looked to change it.

The EoS are not technically bound by the boundary rule, but apply the spirit of it as obviously ignoring it causes additional issues further along. Which is why they've informed at least one Tayside club against applying previously. And are now able to consider Luncarty without outright rejecting them.

Luncarty as a club are ultimately an anomaly where the town is split by the boundary. If they ever decided to move ground it could be to the South of the line causing issues if there was a hard enforcement of the boundary. You would then have to force them to change leagues.

Or if they ever needed to groundshare for a period of time that ground is likely to be South of the line as they're closer.

These are not situations that apply to any other club.

All good points, but surely you base any decision on the information you currently have. Using the counter to your "what ifs", if Luncarty, for arguments sake, moved to merge with a club further North, ie Bankfoot (do they still have a team?) and ground share there, then all of a sudden a team in the EOSFL are further beyond the line than teams like East Craigie, Broughty Athletic etc. 

All the points being made I completely understand and if Dundee & Angus teams were all focused on going North I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid at Luncarty being a borderline team going South. I remember years ago Montrose Roselea leaving the Tayside Juniors to go to the North Juniors and it was met without many (if any) objections from either side. But the fact that other Tayside teams have already enquired about entry to the EOSFL is the interesting part. Any move to relax the boundary for one team, in my opinion, opens the door for others to test that boundary even further. 

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

You could well be right, don't really know much about either club, was just using a few PH postcode examples and assuming they gathered their players etc from local areas and Perth.

And you're either North of the line or South of it. It's black and white in terms of that. I'm merely pointing out that Luncarty being approved would be to approve a team North of the HL/LL line. Not sure distance North or distance South can be applied if it's a Rule. That would simply be a discussion point involved in the relaxation reasons.

All that said, I can understand why Luncarty seem a sensible club to relax any such rule for. 

My point is, they've made a relaxation for Luncarty, what's to say that St Andrews, Glenrothes, Kirkcaldy or Kennoway wouldn't support an application from say Lochee Utd who would present a shorter (in some cases significantly shorter) journey for them than heading to Luncarty? And also have the potential for bigger crowds perhaps. 

Again, looking at it from both sides of the Line it's interesting.

 

Because what happens then is the Lowland League decide they don't like the actions of the EoS and write a specific boundary rule into their rules and regulations enforcing the HL/LL Boundary Line stated in the SPFL Playoff. The EoSFL is then left with x number of North of Tay members that can no longer be promoted beyond Tier 6 and potentially prevent other LL eligible clubs gaining promotion.

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

All good points, but surely you base any decision on the information you currently have. Using the counter to your "what ifs", if Luncarty, for arguments sake, moved to merge with a club further North, ie Bankfoot (do they still have a team?) and ground share there, then all of a sudden a team in the EOSFL are further beyond the line than teams like East Craigie, Broughty Athletic etc. 

All the points being made I completely understand and if Dundee & Angus teams were all focused on going North I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid at Luncarty being a borderline team going South. I remember years ago Montrose Roselea leaving the Tayside Juniors to go to the North Juniors and it was met without many (if any) objections from either side. But the fact that other Tayside teams have already enquired about entry to the EOSFL is the interesting part. Any move to relax the boundary for one team, in my opinion, opens the door for others to test that boundary even further. 

 

 

It really doesn't

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, themillerman1979 said:

All good points, but surely you base any decision on the information you currently have. Using the counter to your "what ifs", if Luncarty, for arguments sake, moved to merge with a club further North, ie Bankfoot (do they still have a team?) and ground share there, then all of a sudden a team in the EOSFL are further beyond the line than teams like East Craigie, Broughty Athletic etc. 

All the points being made I completely understand and if Dundee & Angus teams were all focused on going North I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid at Luncarty being a borderline team going South. I remember years ago Montrose Roselea leaving the Tayside Juniors to go to the North Juniors and it was met without many (if any) objections from either side. But the fact that other Tayside teams have already enquired about entry to the EOSFL is the interesting part. Any move to relax the boundary for one team, in my opinion, opens the door for others to test that boundary even further.

As i've said above and before there is no rule preventing Luncarty from applying to the EoSFL. So there has been no relaxation in it. In PWG meetings the EoSFL have advocated for the creation of a Tayside league not merging with them or accepting members from Tayside.

And the EoSFL is only a cog in the machine and it can see the Lowland League enforcing the HL/LL boundary negatively impacting the prospects of EoSFL clubs from South of the boundary.

[Guest]

As I said the boundary line was set for a specific reason. Every league deciding in their own right to either enforce or not enforce is dangerous for the integrity of the LL HL split.

The line is there for a reason, to ensure that the amount of clubs playing in the pyramid in the North and South is controlled and as even as it can be. Moving it further north isn't the answer.

[Marten]

17 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

You could well be right, don't really know much about either club, was just using a few PH postcode examples and assuming they gathered their players etc from local areas and Perth.

And you're either North of the line or South of it. It's black and white in terms of that. I'm merely pointing out that Luncarty being approved would be to approve a team North of the HL/LL line. Not sure distance North or distance South can be applied if it's a Rule. That would simply be a discussion point involved in the relaxation reasons.

All that said, I can understand why Luncarty seem a sensible club to relax any such rule for. 

My point is, they've made a relaxation for Luncarty, what's to say that St Andrews, Glenrothes, Kirkcaldy or Kennoway wouldn't support an application from say Lochee Utd who would present a shorter (in some cases significantly shorter) journey for them than heading to Luncarty? And also have the potential for bigger crowds perhaps. 

Again, looking at it from both sides of the Line it's interesting.

 

Just as an aside, but using postcode areas won't work regardless as the PH postcode area is massive. Even Fort William has a PH postcode, I doubt they'll be applying to join the EOS any time soon...

[themillerman1979]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because what happens then is the Lowland League decide they don't like the actions of the EoS and write a specific boundary rule into their rules and regulations enforcing the HL/LL Boundary Line stated in the SPFL Playoff. The EoSFL is then left with x number of North of Tay members that can no longer be promoted beyond Tier 6 and potentially prevent other LL eligible clubs gaining promotion.

 

I see. So the rule makers in this seem to be SPFL/HL/LL. 

As I said, the Tayside region seems to be the proverbial no mans land in this whole thing and the scramble to get over the border (whatever side you prefer) is definitely going to be tested in the coming weeks and beyond.

 

[parsforlife]

19 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

As I said the boundary line was set for a specific reason. Every league deciding in their own right to either enforce or not enforce is dangerous for the integrity of the LL HL split.

The line is there for a reason, to ensure that the amount of clubs playing in the pyramid in the North and South is controlled and as even as it can be. Moving it further north isn't the answer.

I find it difficult to think EoS are able to accept luncarty’s application without checking with the various authorities. It should be a relatively easy thing to process but it does need processed.

Edited April 17, 2020 by parsforlife

[themillerman1979]

7 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

It really doesn't

You may well be right Alan. In fact, you probably are!! But time will tell. Strange times at the moment all round so nothing would surprise me going forward. 

Phil McGuire was a big advocate of taking St Andrews to the EOSFL during his time there. His current team would be the extreme example in terms of distance but they don't appear to be focusing on a move to the HL. What would stop them asking the question about applying again as soon as the rule is relaxed? Give and inch and all that!

[AlanCamelonfan]

Just now, themillerman1979 said:

You may well be right Alan. In fact, you probably are!! But time will tell. Strange times at the moment all round so nothing would surprise me going forward. 

Phil McGuire was a big advocate of taking St Andrews to the EOSFL during his time there. His current team would be the extreme example in terms of distance but they don't appear to be focusing on a move to the HL. What would stop them asking the question about applying again as soon as the rule is relaxed? Give and inch and all that!

i was always of the belief Tayside was too far away in the juniors and with the eosfl geography heading further south I feel it would be too far. Having twice been sent to Carnoustie midweek for 715pm kick offs. I appreciate it would more likely be 730 or 745 under lights in eosfl just think they are more suited to go north.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

As I said, the Tayside region seems to be the proverbial no mans land in this whole thing and the scramble to get over the border (whatever side you prefer) is definitely going to be tested in the coming weeks and beyond.

Bugger all is going to happen in the coming weeks. Applications to the EoSFL are closed.

As for the No Man's Land bit that's self made. The advice of the EOSFL has been to create a Tayside League.

[themillerman1979]

8 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As i've said above and before there is no rule preventing Luncarty from applying to the EoSFL. So there has been no relaxation in it. In PWG meetings the EoSFL have advocated for the creation of a Tayside league not merging with them or accepting members from Tayside.

And the EoSFL is only a cog in the machine and it can see the Lowland League enforcing the HL/LL boundary negatively impacting the prospects of EoSFL clubs from South of the boundary.

From the outside looking in it certainly appears the EOSFL are well run and make sensible, well thought through decisions. I'm sure we'll agree that's not necessarily the norm for football organisations.  Hence the sensible decision to consider and discuss these types of questions. Many others would have just quoted a ruling and set you on your way, some wouldn't have responded at all I bet!!

 

[Ray Patterson]

2 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

I see. So the rule makers in this seem to be SPFL/HL/LL. 

As I said, the Tayside region seems to be the proverbial no mans land in this whole thing and the scramble to get over the border (whatever side you prefer) is definitely going to be tested in the coming weeks and beyond.

 

Tayside is not in a no man's land.

It seems quite simple to me either a) Use the Tayside Junior League as a Tier 6 HL feeder OR b) merge the Tayside and North Super and form a Tier 6 feeder. This option is there for clubs.

Dundee is in the North of the Country and Brechin is used as a commuter town to Aberdeen ffs. Our Seat in the Regional Ballot is North East Scotland ffs.

If anything, the border should be pushed South not North, but I'm for the Tay as a boundary for pragmatic reasons. In England, Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire is the Tier 6 North/South Dividing line - as they move it every season to tailor the number of clubs, not the wishes of the clubs.

 

[themillerman1979]

7 minutes ago, Marten said:

Just as an aside, but using postcode areas won't work regardless as the PH postcode area is massive. Even Fort William has a PH postcode, I doubt they'll be applying to join the EOS any time soon...

Very true...... just google mapped PH! 

[themillerman1979]

2 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

i was always of the belief Tayside was too far away in the juniors and with the eosfl geography heading further south I feel it would be too far. Having twice been sent to Carnoustie midweek for 715pm kick offs. I appreciate it would more likely be 730 or 745 under lights in eosfl just think they are more suited to go north.

I can see your argument clearly. I guess back in the Junior days things like floodlights were a luxury of the few. You also had an organisation which didn't seem to care about sending Camelon to Carnoustie midweek. I'm sure any complaint would have been met with "get on with it".

Going forward, if Camelon were sent to Carnoustie (example purposes only) during the week it would more than likely be as part of Tier 6 (potentially Tier 5 given the progress of your club recently) and the EOSFL seem to be sensible in scheduling around floodlights which more and more are getting. This would allow a much more flexible time to be agreed. Not to mention the opportunity for clubs to reschedule the day it's played on as well.

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

6 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

Tayside is not in a no man's land.

It seems quite simple to me either a) Use the Tayside Junior League as a Tier 6 HL feeder OR b) merge the Tayside and North Super and form a Tier 6 feeder. This option is there for clubs....

There is no indication that the HL see the Tayside juniors as a potential tier 6 feeder. They only ever mention the NCL and the north region in that context. Tayside is in no man's land because neither the LL/EoS or HL appear to want them.

[themillerman1979]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Bugger all is going to happen in the coming weeks. Applications to the EoSFL are closed.

As for the No Man's Land bit that's self made. The advice of the EOSFL has been to create a Tayside League.

 

7 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

Tayside is not in a no man's land.

It seems quite simple to me either a) Use the Tayside Junior League as a Tier 6 HL feeder OR b) merge the Tayside and North Super and form a Tier 6 feeder. This option is there for clubs.

Dundee is in the North of the Country and Brechin is used as a commuter town to Aberdeen ffs. Our Seat in the Regional Ballot is North East Scotland ffs.

If anything, the border should be pushed South not North, but I'm for the Tay as a boundary for pragmatic reasons. In England, Gloucestershire and Oxfordshire is the Tier 6 North/South Dividing line - as they move it every season to tailor the number of clubs, not the wishes of the clubs.

 

I thought it would be simple as well. But for whatever reason Tayside still seems to be casting envious glances South and completely ignoring the suggestions (sensible as they are) that you've laid out. 

I think the Aberdeen to Brechin route is as easy as you'll get as well. No issues there. But when you factor in Wick, Fort William, Nairn, Inverness and so on it does start to seem daunting.

If the Border was Pushed South that would probably solve a chunk of the issues. You'd and up with a similar split to EOSFL and SOSFL in the Highland League. This would then draw in some stronger teams such as Jeanfield, St Andrews, Kinnoull, Kennoway.

[themillerman1979]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There is no indication that the HL see the Tayside juniors as a potential tier 6 feeder. They only ever mention the NCL and the north region in that context. Tayside is in no man's land because neither the LL/EoS or HL appear to want them.

That's certainly the way I see it. 

Or certainly the LL don't seem to want Tayside but and the Tayside / Highland League apathy for each other appears mutual.

From what I've learned so far, I think the interesting conversation may be between the LL and EOSFL if Luncarty are accepted. EOSFL seem to be open to it but will this put the LL in a perilous position should we see Brechin being a candidate for relegation to Tier 5 again?