New clubs in the East of Scotland

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, themillerman1979 said:

 

I'm assuming, subject to meeting ground entry criteria, there won't be many (if any) objections.

Luncarty may be the interesting one given location and the potential for setting a precedent to allow teams like Lochee Utd, Broughty, Carnoustie etc access to the Lowland League pyramid route.

 

I think Luncarty will just be treated as an anomaly rather than a way in for Tayside teams. The boundary literally splits the town which doesn't happen elsewhere. The line was obviously drawn with the intention of including all of Dundee in the Highland League area without any consideration of how it fell elsewhere. It certainly wasn't chosen with the idea of integrating the existing Junior leagues at the time.

[snowball]

Just to confirm Craigroyston will definitely be continuing next season

[AsimButtHitsASix]

56 minutes ago, BMan said:

1 hour ago, themillerman1979 said:

So are the rumoured 8 No applicants to the EOSFL officially known yet? 
Be interesting to see who will be left in the East Juniors after the applicants are accepted or rejected.

Yes, all Fife Junior clubs.

Apart from Tayport? /pedantry

[AsimButtHitsASix]

14 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Not really theirs a difference between a team where the line goes through the middle of the village and teams miles over the border otherwise why not bring in Carlisle United

 

I asked what the possibility of Northern English clubs joining the Scottish pyramid would be when Tweedmouth came in and was telt there's something in the rulebook that specifically states only SFA members can join our leagues and SFA membership states that clubs have to play in Scotland but there's a wee asterix that says "And Berwick as well".

So I think that only really leaves Spittal Rovers as a club in the English pyramid who could jump over the border.

This was further expanded by a Gretna fan saying they found it much easier to attract players from the North of England when they played in their league system but they have difficulties getting folk from Cumbria to play in the Scottish League as the travel is greater for them. I don't think Cumbrian or Northumbrian clubs have much interest in joining even if they could.

 

[Ginaro]

2 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I asked what the possibility of Northern English clubs joining the Scottish pyramid would be when Tweedmouth came in and was telt there's something in the rulebook that specifically states only SFA members can join our leagues and SFA membership states that clubs have to play in Scotland but there's a wee asterix that says "And Berwick as well".

SPFL rule H15

A Club’s or Candidate Club’s Registered Ground must be situated in Scotland unless otherwise agreed in writing by the Scottish FA and the Board, save in the case of Berwick Rangers FC for whom approval to have its Registered Ground in Berwick-upon-Tweed, England shall be deemed to have been granted prior to the date of adoption of these Rules.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

19 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

SPFL rule H15

A Club’s or Candidate Club’s Registered Ground must be situated in Scotland unless otherwise agreed in writing by the Scottish FA and the Board, save in the case of Berwick Rangers FC for whom approval to have its Registered Ground in Berwick-upon-Tweed, England shall be deemed to have been granted prior to the date of adoption of these Rules.

That wording seems to make Berwick Rangers the exception rather than the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed so I stand corrected. If Tweedmouth could do it then I guess Penrith could do it as well (in theory)

[GNU_Linux]

That wording seems to make Berwick Rangers the exception rather than the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed so I stand corrected. If Tweedmouth could do it then I guess Penrith could do it as well (in theory)

On English teams in Scotland during their non-league days Wigan & North Shields tried to join the SFL in 1972 due to frustration with non-league clubs needing to be elected to the EFL if they won their league.

https://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/30-Clubs/9905-the-scottish-play

[AsimButtHitsASix]

12 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

On English teams in Scotland during their non-league days Wigan & North Shields tried to join the SFL in 1972 due to frustration with non-league clubs needing to be elected to the EFL if they won their league.

https://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/30-Clubs/9905-the-scottish-play

http://scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2960

Bit more detail about Gateshead's attempt as well. Also the last post on that thread is hilarious in light of what happened with Sevco a year later

Edited April 17, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[themillerman1979]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Not really theirs a difference between a team where the line goes through the middle of the village and teams miles over the border otherwise why not bring in Carlisle United

 

Completely understand your point hence the question. I was merely saying it's a relaxation of a piece of guidance which could / should(?) open up a further discussion. Coupar Angus and Blairgowrie both being PH postcode teams may ask the question about joining on a similar basis. Likewise,  East Craigie's ground would only be 4 or 5 miles North of "the line" at the Tay Bridge end.

If it's simply a discussion over travel, then the majority of Fife teams east of Dunfermline would have less travel going to teams in Dundee as opposed to Luncarty for example. 

Just a discussion point as I'm sure the Dundee / Angus Junior teams will be watching with interest at how the Luncarty Application is received. Some big names (Lochee Utd & Carnoustie most notably) run the risk of being lost in a relative 'no man's land'.

 

 

[Whitburn Vale]

1 hour ago, themillerman1979 said:

 

I'm assuming, subject to meeting ground entry criteria, there won't be many (if any) objections.

Luncarty may be the interesting one given location and the potential for setting a precedent to allow teams like Lochee Utd, Broughty, Carnoustie etc access to the Lowland League pyramid route.

 

Luncarty are borderline,so dont see much of a problem with them.

As for the other clubs you mentioned its north they go,there is already too much of an imbalance between the LL and the HL as it is.

[themillerman1979]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I think Luncarty will just be treated as an anomaly rather than a way in for Tayside teams. The boundary literally splits the town which doesn't happen elsewhere. The line was obviously drawn with the intention of including all of Dundee in the Highland League area without any consideration of how it fell elsewhere. It certainly wasn't chosen with the idea of integrating the existing Junior leagues at the time.

Just playing devils advocate here. Anomaly to some can be read as rule bending / relaxing to others.

Completely agree on the intentions of the line and if seriously thought out it may have been drawn differently? Or not drawn at all and categorised teams using their historical regions and leagues. So Kinnoull and Jeanfield would have been grouped in with the Tayside teams. In hindsight this might have been the most sensible solution had anyone predicted the last 5 years goings on.

Tayside Region, Fife Region, Lothians , South Region could all have been regional leagues again at tier 6 or 7 or 8. with the EOSFL being the combined league. 

Anyway, the discussion point was really just a note of interest to see how the Dundee / Angus Juniors teams react/act if there is a positive vote in favour of Luncarty entering the East of Scotland setup.

 

[themillerman1979]

2 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Luncarty are borderline,so dont see much of a problem with them.

As for the other clubs you mentioned its north they go,there is already too much of an imbalance between the LL and the HL as it is.

Agreed Whitburn. The imbalance north is definitely an issue that needs addressing. 

But does it pose a similar problem to the Lowland league where the outlying clubs towards the Scotland / England border seem to be weaker.

It seems the Lowland League and Highland League are of comparable standards, it's just the disparity below that. EOSFL and WOSFL will be strong. But the SOSFL and any Aberdeen / North Tier 6 league would not be of similar quality.

The difficulty of that Tayside Region is the majority of these teams, if forced to choose, would much rather travel South than North. The previous Junior Super League would back this up, as would the lack of interest in any of these teams discussing entering the HL Setup, but a number of teams having expressed an interest in the Lowland League route over the past year or two.

As I say, I think this decision will definitely be watched with interest by a few of those with eyes looking South.

 

[Whitburn Vale]

5 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

Agreed Whitburn. The imbalance north is definitely an issue that needs addressing. 

But does it pose a similar problem to the Lowland league where the outlying clubs towards the Scotland / England border seem to be weaker.

It seems the Lowland League and Highland League are of comparable standards, it's just the disparity below that. EOSFL and WOSFL will be strong. But the SOSFL and any Aberdeen / North Tier 6 league would not be of similar quality.

The difficulty of that Tayside Region is the majority of these teams, if forced to choose, would much rather travel South than North. The previous Junior Super League would back this up, as would the lack of interest in any of these teams discussing entering the HL Setup, but a number of teams having expressed an interest in the Lowland League route over the past year or two.

As I say, I think this decision will definitely be watched with interest by a few of those with eyes looking South.

 

Millerman there is currently an inter regional cup between the North juniors and Tayside juniors plus the travel north is easy peasy now due to the new AWPR.

Also in my opinion I dont see the need to follow the old junior system.

[LongTimeLurker]

13 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Luncarty are borderline,so dont see much of a problem with them...

There's no ambiguity in the club 42 playoff rules. Any registered ground north of the exact line of latitude is in the HL catchment, so if they can be flexible on this one there's no obvious reason why they can't be flexible all the way up to Brechin Vics beyond simply not wanting to. If/when Brechin City get their way on Angus clubs getting relegated to the LL could Lochee United really be asked to enter at tier 8? All a bit of a mess.

[Guest]

The Brechin ruling would be ridiculous. There is already enough clubs vying for position in the lowland area.

The line was set where it is for a reason, agreed when the HL and LL were devised. I'm not sure anything had fundamentally changed that would determine it has to move.

[themillerman1979]

4 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Millerman there is currently an inter regional cup between the North juniors and Tayside juniors plus the travel north is easy peasy now due to the new AWPR.

Also in my opinion I dont see the need to follow the old junior system.

I know of cup you mention but was this not something which posed so many issues regarding travelling that they regionalised it up until the latter stages meaning one or two trips North as a maximum.

From memory I can't remember a North Region Team winning the cup or even being in the final in recent years which would offer up a theory that likely winners of any combined North Tier 6 League would be from the old Tayside Junior leagues and as such they'd in the Highland League rather quickly. Why would this not be appealing to any ambitious clubs (again mentioning Carnoustie, Lochee Utd & Broughty with their new setup perhaps)? Only reason I can see is the travel and the fact that none of them see it as viable. 

Yes if they entered at Tier 7 in the EOSFL it will mean some long journeys, but as you go up the leagues the distance appears to be shorter with teams centralising in the East Lothian, West Lothian and Fife Regions. Similar to the old Junior Super Leagues which Tayside teams were all part of. 

I'm sure this has all been debated previously but just catching up on who's "coming" and who's "staying" in the latest round of applications.

[themillerman1979]

8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There's no ambiguity in the club 42 playoff rules. Any registered ground north of the exact line of latitude is in the HL catchment, so if they can be flexible on this one there's no obvious reason why they can't be flexible all the way up to Brechin Vics beyond simply not wanting to. If/when Brechin City get their way on Angus clubs getting relegated to the LL could Lochee United really be asked to enter at tier 8? All a bit of a mess.

LongTimeLurker, wasn't aware of that rule which makes things clear in terms of a route up the Pyramid. The question I'd ask in that case, is why would any ambitious club (and I do add the ambitious bit deliberately) enter a setup where promotion would be restricted. ie if Luncarty entered the EOSFL and won through two promotions. Would they be allowed to enter the Lowland League with the current rules?

I appreciate there will be some teams who don't have ambition and merely want to survive in a league that presents competitive football with the lowest possible cost to the club, and perhaps the odd derby game or two.  Tayport staying in the East Juniors may fit that category. 

[themillerman1979]

8 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

The Brechin ruling would be ridiculous. There is already enough clubs vying for position in the lowland area.

The line was set where it is for a reason, agreed when the HL and LL were devised. I'm not sure anything had fundamentally changed that would determine it has to move.

G4Mac were Brechin supposedly looking to go to the Lowland League if relegated?

In terms of the "line" it seems that the EOSFL is not focusing on that line in considering an application from North of it. If they can consider it, would it not open the doors for others?

[Marten]

48 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

Completely understand your point hence the question. I was merely saying it's a relaxation of a piece of guidance which could / should(?) open up a further discussion. Coupar Angus and Blairgowrie both being PH postcode teams may ask the question about joining on a similar basis. Likewise,  East Craigie's ground would only be 4 or 5 miles North of "the line" at the Tay Bridge end.

If it's simply a discussion over travel, then the majority of Fife teams east of Dunfermline would have less travel going to teams in Dundee as opposed to Luncarty for example. 

Just a discussion point as I'm sure the Dundee / Angus Junior teams will be watching with interest at how the Luncarty Application is received. Some big names (Lochee Utd & Carnoustie most notably) run the risk of being lost in a relative 'no man's land'.

 

 

These are completely different cases though. Dundee city and the towns of Blairgowrie & Coupar Angus are all fully north of the line. Blairgowrie & Coupar Angus aren't even close. The village of Luncarty has the line literally running through it, with the majority actually being south of it.

Btw, I'm pretty sure that Blairgowrie & Coupar Angus would rather be with the Tayside teams than the Perth teams anyway if they were given the choice.

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

 Would they be allowed to enter the Lowland League with the current rules?

That's not clear. The only clearly written rule covers what happens to Club 42 if they get relegated. Luncarty are not Club 42 so there is nothing obvious stopping the EoS from accepting them. There is nothing in the various constitutions on what happens with the HL:LL boundary going up the pyramid in the opposite direction from Club 42.