New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Marten]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

One last try to get my argument across with no follow ups. Tayside is still up for discussion at PWG level as far as the SFA is concerned. If the EoS posture is that there is no need for that and it is a closed issue because the team 42 boundary logically applies at tier 6 as well, there can be no flexibility for Luncarty at their current registered home ground because the rule as written for team 42 is crystal clear and provides no scope for that.

You can keep blaming the EOS for the situation, but that's really inappropriate. I follow Lochee United, a Tayside ERJFA club. I'm also pro-pyramid so obviously I'm not happy with the current situation. But I don't blame the EOS for it. They are effectively told from which area they can accept clubs and we are outwith that area. Any changes to the boundary are down to the HL/LL/SPFL. Any changes to the pyramid north of the Tay without changes to the boundary are down to the HL/SJFA/NCL/SFA. There are plenty of organisations to blame for the current situation over here, depending on your views on the matter, but the EOS isn't one of them.

[GordonS]

5 minutes ago, Marten said:

AFC Wimbledon joined at what was then the lowest senior tier in the area. What's below there is effectively the same as the amateur leagues here and new senior clubs effectively always start in the lowest senior tier. Later tier 10 became the lowest senior tier in all of England but at that time it was still tier 9 in some parts. The likes of FC United of Manchester, Darlington, Guernsey & Jersey all started at tier 10 for that reason. A phoenix club of Bury have been accepted in the National League System, meaning they will be at least tier 10 next season.

Chester were an exception as they were effectively seen as the continuation of Chester City and were therefore allowed to start a bit higher, this could still happen to Bury.

 

9 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

AFC Wimbledon did start at the bottom. Their request to start a step higher was refused.

My mistake,  I'd read that AFC Wimbledon started in the Combined Counties League Premier Division, but what I didn't realise was that Division One was only established the year after they joined.

Still, it happened with Chester, and what we're talking about here is integrating teams that already exist. Another example is Merthyr Town FC who started in the Western Football League Division One after Merthyr Tydfil were liquidated.

As a precedent or example from England, it's not true that everyone starts at the bottom, and I'm not sure it's strictly relevant to a country that's only just trying to cobble a pyramid together from a messy landscape of existing leagues and clubs.

[LongTimeLurker]

5 minutes ago, Marten said:

You can keep blaming the EOS for the situation, ...

At no point have I done that. Describing the rules that are actually in place has SFA to do with the concept of blame over anything.

[Guest]

I couldn't agree more marten. Individuals seem intent on placing the whole blame on the eos, an association who did not have a part in setting the current parameters for lowland area pyramid entry.

What the eos have done is vote to ensure there isn't a geographical overlap with two associations operating at the same level, in the same area, which would be silly.

People have to accept that when you join anything in life the person or group joining accepts terms set out by that which they are joining (a club or association). The person or group that are joining can't set the terms, otherwise what they are joining would change on an almost consistent basis as more and more people or groups joined.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, GordonS said:

 

My mistake,  I'd read that AFC Wimbledon started in the Combined Counties League Premier Division, but what I didn't realise was that Division One was only established the year after they joined.

Still, it happened with Chester, and what we're talking about here is integrating teams that already exist. Another example is Merthyr Town FC who started in the Western Football League Division One after Merthyr Tydfil were liquidated.

As a precedent or example from England, it's not true that everyone starts at the bottom, and I'm not sure it's strictly relevant to a country that's only just trying to cobble a pyramid together from a messy landscape of existing leagues and clubs.

Dalbeattie Star and Threave Rovers left the SoSFL and joined the EoSFL at its lowest division, the EoS First Division.

I suppose the argument for tier 7 entry at this point is that the EoS is taking applications with no statement as to what the league structure will be in 2020-21.

[Guest]

At no point have I done that. Describing the rules that are actually in place has SFA to do with the concept of blame over anything.

You, and others, have continually stated the eos (and LL) have vetoed all previous attempts to get the sjfa into the pyramid.

Even your wording relating to the eos 'posture' implies you believe them to be playing a part in either delaying things or stopping things. Coincidentally, this fits with what other think your own personal stance regarding the eos is.

[LongTimeLurker]

I explained above the technicalities of the question of whether Luncarty could be allowed into the EoS if the team 42 Tay boundary is applicable. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of blame over SJFA entry.

[Dev]

14 hours ago, Ormi said:

Why should e.g. Fauldhouse come in at tier 6 next season? By that logic all the teams that moved in 2018 should have gone into tier 5 (Lowland League).

As the league expands then the entry place for new clubs (other than Lowland League relegations) will be at the lowest available level. Currently the Conferences are the lowest level - at Tier 7.

It is a possibility that this could change quickly with new clubs having to come in at Tier 8 even by next season. This is the risk which potential new clubs have to consider i.e. will the entry place be Tier 7 or 8 next season. For some it won't matter too much but for others it could be felt that it is a step down from they are currently.

There-again next season may be the last chance for some clubs, e.g. ERJFA South Supreme level, to come in at Tier 7 i.e. current Conferences level.

Decisions! Decisions!

Edited January 11, 2020 by Dev
up-date

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

One last try to get my argument across with no follow ups. Tayside is still up for discussion at PWG level as far as the SFA is concerned. If the EoS posture is that there is no need for that and it is a closed issue because the team 42 boundary logically applies at tier 6 as well, there can be no flexibility for Luncarty at their current registered home ground because the rule as written for team 42 is crystal clear and provides no scope for that.

Nonsense.

[gaz5]

As the league expands then the entry place for new clubs (other than Lowland League relegations) will be at the lowest available level. Currently the Conferences are the lowest level - at Tier 7. It is a possibility that this could change quickly with new clubs having to come in at Tier 8 even by next season. This is the risk which potential new clubs have to consider i.e. will the entry place be Tier 7 or 8 next season. For some it won't matter too much for others it could be felt that it is a step down from they are currently.
Decisions! Decisions"

That's a risk/issue of their own making though.

2 years ago it was guaranteed Tier 6. They chose not to move. 1 year ago it was guaranteed.Tier 7, they still chose not to move.

For me, 1.5 promotion places from the conference's isn't enough with the number of decent teams chasing them. Moving to 3 conferences, introducing more good teams and reducing the promotion places to 1 per conference is counter productive.

It's also not particularly fair on the smaller clubs.

In my opinion, for the good of the clubs we need to move the smaller conference's, if there are to be any, to Tier 8 and have a first division at Tier 7.

If that impacts a handful of perceived "larger" clubs who want to move from ERSJFA so be it, you would adversely impact more clubs already in the EoS structure not to having already had 2 years and 2 opportunities to move.

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, Dev said:

As the league expands then the entry place for new clubs (other than Lowland League relegations) will be at the lowest available level. Currently the Conferences are the lowest level - at Tier 7. It is a possibility that this could change quickly with new clubs having to come in at Tier 8 even by next season. This is the risk which potential new clubs have to consider i.e. will the entry place be Tier 7 or 8 next season. For some it won't matter too much for others it could be felt that it is a step down from they are currently.

Decisions! Decisions"

The decision for EoS clubs to make will be one of either move to a traditional divisional structure and creating a tier 8, or stay another season with conferences at tier 7.

I get the feeling the former is the preferred choice, however, if the EoS are sitting on a pile of applications from Fife and WL Junior clubs then there is still a possibility of the latter for one more season.

I think the latter won't happen as I doubt any Junior club have applied at this juncture, or at least not in any sufficient numbers to justify another conference season.

Either way, a decision needs to be made soon so current members clubs can get on with planning for next season, and beyond.

[Marten]

45 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I explained above the technicalities of the question of whether Luncarty could be allowed into the EoS if the team 42 Tay boundary is applicable. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of blame over SJFA entry.

You keep bringing up Luncarty, but they are still only rumoured to have applied to the EOS. Also, it won't just be down to the EOS whether or not they accept them. I'd assume Luncarty (if they indeed want to join the EOS) will put forward a case arguing that the village itself is largely in LL territory, so is the "centre" of Luncarty, and that therefore they should have the right to be accepted into an LL feeder. Whether or not that argument is accepted will probably be decided in discussions of the EOS with other parties, possibly the PWG and maybe the HL/LL/SPFL will need to be involved in the discussion due to the boundary issue.

There are too many ifs and buts to draw any conclusions on Luncarty's situation at the moment.

[Dev]

6 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

That's a risk/issue of their own making though.

2 years ago it was guaranteed Tier 6. They chose not to move. 1 year ago it was guaranteed.Tier 7, they still chose not to move.

For me, 1.5 promotion places from the conference's isn't enough with the number of decent teams chasing them. Moving to 3 conferences, introducing more good teams and reducing the promotion places to 1 per conference is counter productive.

It's also not particularly fair on the smaller clubs.

In my opinion, for the good of the clubs we need to move the smaller conference's, if there are to be any, to Tier 8 and have a first division at Tier 7.

If that impacts a handful of perceived "larger" clubs who want to move from ERSJFA so be it, you would adversely impact more clubs already in the EoS structure not to having already had 2 years and 2 opportunities to move.

This will be determined by the number of additional clubs applying to join for next season. If there's sufficient to form a third Tier 7 Conference then it needs to be for just a single season with the better clubs then moving into a Division One with a new Tier 8 split on a North - South basis on a permanent basis.

In the event that the number of new clubs is such that they can be accommodated easily into two Tier 7 Conferences then the league needs to listen hard to the views of the existing Tier 7 clubs and follow their wishes even if this means going to a region-wide lower Tier 8 where such clubs can get back to enjoying their matches instead of receiving regular hammerings. 

[honestman54]

11 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

AFC Wimbledon did start at the bottom. Their request to start a step higher was refused.

As was Bury Fc's request for next season

[Marten]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

 

My mistake,  I'd read that AFC Wimbledon started in the Combined Counties League Premier Division, but what I didn't realise was that Division One was only established the year after they joined.

Still, it happened with Chester, and what we're talking about here is integrating teams that already exist. Another example is Merthyr Town FC who started in the Western Football League Division One after Merthyr Tydfil were liquidated.

As a precedent or example from England, it's not true that everyone starts at the bottom, and I'm not sure it's strictly relevant to a country that's only just trying to cobble a pyramid together from a messy landscape of existing leagues and clubs.

You're right that England is a completely different case. They also had a very messy landscape of existing leagues and clubs, but eventually nearly all leagues got included in the pyramid (with the exception of some purely amateur leagues low down that still aren't part of the pyramid). Once a pyramid started, the whole country was covered by leagues which isn't really the case here. That's why leagues like the Northern League who didn't join until much later on, finally joined much lower than they could originally have done. The west can still join at tier 6 here in Scotland due to there not being a west league in the pyramid below the LL. Same with any tier 6 north league should one happen in the future.

It's also worth noting btw that since AFC Wimbledon got founded (2002), the pyramid has undergone massive changes. Also after Chester's admission in 2010 some big changes happened.

[parsforlife]

I would expect that things might be left until March 31st and based on the number of applicants at that stage. 

with the 4 PWG options out for discussion just now I would be thinking that a few clubs will be holding off on an application until at least the PWG meet again and the overall feedback is discussed.   It wouldn’t surprise me if clubs hold off completely this season. 

if the west region joins then the east region juniors will have lost their only bargaining chip,  a formal merger might actually gain more traction than the meetings this year(which seemed to be a waste of time).  I think your probably looking at next year before there would be an influx of applicants.

if a first division gets formed with new clubs moving into tier 8(which might end up be 2 conferences/regions) how many sides would end up having a kelty season? Let’s remember kennoway star and fauldhouse were the 2 best placed sides that stayed.  If Livingston apply and end up playing tier 8 are they going to be far too good for it? They might want to win it sure, but every side goes into the season with ambition 

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

AFC Wimbledon joined at what was then the lowest senior tier in the area. What's below there is effectively the same as the amateur leagues here and new senior clubs effectively always start in the lowest senior tier. Later tier 10 became the lowest senior tier in all of England but at that time it was still tier 9 in some parts. The likes of FC United of Manchester, Darlington, Guernsey & Jersey all started at tier 10 for that reason. A phoenix club of Bury have been accepted in the National League System, meaning they will be at least tier 10 next season.

Chester were an exception as they were effectively seen as the continuation of Chester City and were therefore allowed to start a bit higher, this could still happen to Bury.

Edit: using the term senior is probably not entirely correct, but just to keep the comparison with Scottish football I've used it.

Also : new club FC Isle of Man has been accepted (in principle) into the N W Counties League for 2020/21

[LongTimeLurker]

36 minutes ago, Marten said:

You keep bringing up Luncarty, but they are still only rumoured to have applied to the EOS. Also, it won't just be down to the EOS whether or not they accept them. I'd assume Luncarty (if they indeed want to join the EOS) will put forward a case arguing that the village itself is largely in LL territory, so is the "centre" of Luncarty, and that therefore they should have the right to be accepted into an LL feeder. Whether or not that argument is accepted will probably be decided in discussions of the EOS with other parties, possibly the PWG and maybe the HL/LL/SPFL will need to be involved in the discussion due to the boundary issue.

There are too many ifs and buts to draw any conclusions on Luncarty's situation at the moment.

Try doing what I did and actually looking at the Club 42 rule:

https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/files/shares/SPFL Rules and Regulations 22-Jul-19.pdf

In the event of Club 42 losing the PyramidPlay-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league.

There is nothing in that other than the location of the registered home ground with respect to a specific line of latitude. If this boundary is relevant to the EoS as some have argued on here, Luncarty are not in the EoS/LL catchment unless they move their registered home ground to a different part of the village.

Edited January 11, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

how many sides would end up having a kelty season? Let’s remember kennoway star and fauldhouse were the 2 best placed sides that stayed.  If Livingston apply and end up playing tier 8 are they going to be far too good for it? They might want to win it sure, but every side goes into the season with ambition 

Keep in mind a Kelty season saw them finish as champions by a grand total of 2 points, as they were battled all along the way by LTHV.

There's no one on the face of it South of the Tay that should be expected to dominate in the way Kelty did given they had the pedigree of being Super League champions 2 of the previous 3 seasons.

Even then at this level things can change dramatically season to season. Nobody expected Tynecastle to have the kind of season they have had this year. Whitburn were meant to be relegated to the East Region South Division but ended up in the cobbled together Super League where they finished 4th last year.

Just have to look at the current South Super League there's no one running away with anything and a club like Kennoway Star Hearts are battling relegation.

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

30 minutes ago, Marten said:

It's also worth noting btw that since AFC Wimbledon got founded (2002), the pyramid has undergone massive changes. Also after Chester's admission in 2010 some big changes happened.

I see they're making a "real" pyramid from next year with Step 1 having one league, Step 2 having two leagues, Step 3 has four, etc. 

Sadly Scotland doesn't really have the geography for a similar split.