New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Jason King]

18 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What the ERSJFA have been saying is that they will revert to a 16 team superleague format next season if pyramid entry happens. Things are not quite as clear cut as you are implying.

...and things aren't as complicated as you are going out of your way to imply.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What the ERSJFA have been saying is that they will revert to a 16 team superleague format next season if pyramid entry happens. Things are not quite as clear cut as you are implying.

I've seen that said by posters on here. Posters that typically got a few things wrong in the recent past. 

I don't think many North or South Premier league clubs think there season is already for nothing.

[LongTimeLurker]

What happens next will become clearer once it becomes clear whether the SFA still envisages the three junior regions being treated the same way, and if they do once it becomes clear whether they have any effective way to secure that outcome over the objections of the EoS. Suspect they won't on the first bit because they can't on the second bit but time will tell 

[Spyro]

21 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I've seen that said by posters on here. Posters that typically got a few things wrong in the recent past. 

I don't think many North or South Premier league clubs think there season is already for nothing.

I think if the North and South sections of the EJSFA superleague were to merge again, it would spell the end of some teams....

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I've seen that said by posters on here. Posters that typically got a few things wrong in the recent past. 

I don't think many North or South Premier league clubs think there season is already for nothing.

There's a reason why the ERJFA went down the regionalisation route, to keep clubs from leaving for the EoS.   I have my doubts whether any clubs, particularly in West Lothian, want to go down the route of going to a 16 team region wide league again involving Tayside. Fauldhouse were pretty vocal on the matter on here.  

If that move is made, and keeping to the topic, there will be some new clubs in the EoS next season.

[patriot1]

36 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There's a reason why the ERJFA went down the regionalisation route, to keep clubs from leaving for the EoS.   I have my doubts whether any clubs, particularly in West Lothian, want to go down the route of going to a 16 team region wide league again involving Tayside. Fauldhouse were pretty vocal on the matter on here.  

If that move is made, and keeping to the topic, there will be some new clubs in the EoS next season.

JC from Fauldhouse stated several months ago that the plan was to go back to one Superleague if it meant the ERSJFA would secure entry to the pyramid. As half the the teams in it would come from the South Superleague there would be less travelling for the West Lothian teams compared to the previous Tayside dominated league. Fauldhouse were happy with the idea of it goes ahead.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

JC from Fauldhouse stated several months ago that the plan was to go back to one Superleague if it meant the ERSJFA would secure entry to the pyramid. As half the the teams in it would come from the South Superleague there would be less travelling for the West Lothian teams compared to the previous Tayside dominated league. Fauldhouse were happy with the idea of it goes ahead.

A 16 team league would probably mean 10 trips over the bridge, 8 of those into Dundee and Angus, that's actually worse than when it was a 12 team league! That cost isn't going to be offset with games against Harthill and Livingston, so they are back in the same position they were in last season.   It would probably also require another vote to get clubs approval, and not all clubs would be happy.

Petrie was clear that regionalisation meant any slight chance of them entering the pyramid were gone. They went ahead and done it anyway, and it may be hard for them to convince Petrie and Co otherwise.

[patriot1]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

A 16 team league would probably mean 10 trips over the bridge, 8 of those into Dundee and Angus, that's actually worse than when it was a 12 team league! That cost isn't going to be offset with games against Harthill and Livingston, so they are back in the same position they were in last season.   It would probably also require another vote to get clubs approval, and not all clubs would be happy.

Petrie was clear that regionalisation meant any slight chance of them entering the pyramid were gone. They went ahead and done it anyway, and it may be hard for them to convince Petrie and Co otherwise.

As I stated above BM they will only go back to a region wide set up if it's tied in with entry to the pyramid. I obviously hope that entry won't be granted and that was the plan earlier this year so could change at any time.

The sooner the PWG meets and the SFA come up with a plan so that everyone knows where they stand the better.

If that ever happens.

 

[Burnie_man]

As I stated above BM they will only go back to a region wide set up if it's tied in with entry to the pyramid. I obviously hope that entry won't be granted and that was the plan earlier this year so could change at any time.

The sooner the PWG meets and the SFA come up with a plan so that everyone knows where they stand the better.

If that ever happens.

I think there needs to be a realisation that Junior clubs should have the choice of remaining Junior or joining a Senior league.  So far the remaining clubs in the ERJFA have shown little interest in joining the EoS, so no reason to change that, let them continue to have that option.  I think one or two a season will move.

However that option doesn't really exist in the west, so replicate it by setting up a WoS and give those clubs a choice to.

Problem is the SJFA blazerati will fight that, they know it's a slide into irrelevance and their well paid positions come under threat. How the SFA go forward remains to be seen.

 

 

[Ginaro]

8 hours ago, patriot1 said:

JC from Fauldhouse stated several months ago that the plan was to go back to one Superleague if it meant the ERSJFA would secure entry to the pyramid. As half the the teams in it would come from the South Superleague there would be less travelling for the West Lothian teams compared to the previous Tayside dominated league. Fauldhouse were happy with the idea of it goes ahead.

Thing is, there doesn't seem to be many clubs who could actually take advantage of being in the pyramid - i.e. are close to getting a licence, and then also getting to the promotion play-off. All of those chasing a licence or pyramid access have moved in the first exodus. So maybe going back to a 16-team league wouldn't get voted through so easily if clubs don't think there would be enough benefits?

[superbigal]

A 16 team league would probably mean 10 trips over the bridge, 8 of those into Dundee and Angus, that's actually worse than when it was a 12 team league! That cost isn't going to be offset with games against Harthill and Livingston, so they are back in the same position they were in last season.   It would probably also require another vote to get clubs approval, and not all clubs would be happy. Petrie was clear that regionalisation meant any slight chance of them entering the pyramid were gone. They went ahead and done it anyway, and it may be hard for them to convince Petrie and Co otherwise.

 

Why would Petrie necessarily be 100% correct on this point of view when on others he is shot down in flames. It's only another SFA directive made up on the hoof afaik. We all know how that went last season.I actually agree with the minimum 16team top league for tier 6 as now supposedly expected.

However it does beg the question what if the Sos membership increased to say 22 clubs.

You could hardly expect them to have a league of 16 and a league of 6.

 

 

 

[Burnie_man]

3 hours ago, superbigal said:

Why would Petrie necessarily be 100% correct on this point of view when on others he is shot down in flames. It's only another SFA directive made up on the hoof afaik. We all know how that went last season.I actually agree with the minimum 16team top league for tier 6 as now supposedly expected.

However it does beg the question what if the Sos membership increased to say 22 clubs.

You could hardly expect them to have a league of 16 and a league of 6.

It wasn't a point of view, it was what he said he told the ERJFA, so either you believe him or you don't. I suspect it's a minimum of 16 clubs, however I agree it does seem an odd stipulation. 

That said, the ERJFA went regional anyway and regardless of how big or small the SFA want to see a tier 6 league, doesn't send a good message for them, and as I pointed out some clubs will be happy to stay that way and they should be allowed to.  Let the ERJFA continue as a seperate league outside the Pyramid and give clubs a choice.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

Having a pyramid system by definition involves getting everybody on board. Giving clubs a choice means still having separate grades, which is what we are supposed to be moving away from by having a pyramid.

Edited August 31, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Having a pyramid system by definition involves getting everybody on board. Giving people a choice means still having separate grades, which is what we are supposed to be moving away from by having a pyramid.

The SFA also say they are not there to force clubs to do something they don't want to do, they are also not interested in being the ones to hammer the nail in the SJFA's coffin, that much is clear given their efforts to shoehorn them into the Pyramid the way TJ wants.

So the obvious solution is you give clubs a choice, and if Junior football slips into obscurity over time and dies a slow death then so be it, we will eventually have the vast majority of semi-pro clubs in the Pyramid.

[LongTimeLurker]

As I have stated before you appear to be more anti-junior than pro pyramid. What does it actually matter if the ERSJFA get in at tier 6, if like the NRSJFA there is no huge enthusiasm for getting licensed and they are likely to putter along being about as relevant as the SoS?

The EoS could make it a condition for agreeing to SJFA entry that the revised LL entry playoff is:

WRSJFA vs ERSJFA

EoS vs SoS

and insist that there would now have to be two relegation places from the LL. Nothing much changes for EoS clubs at that point, the EoS would clearly be the easier way to progress in the east and the EoS would have a veto over any future changes. Job done.

Edited August 31, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As I have stated before you appear to be more anti-junior than pro pyramid. What does it actually matter if the ERSJFA get in at tier 6, if like the NRSJFA there is no huge enthusiasm for getting licensed and they are likely to putter along being about as relevant as the SoS?

The EoS could make it a condition for agreeing to SJFA entry that the revised LL entry playoff is:

WRSJFA vs ERSJFA

EoS vs SoS

and insist that there would now have to be two relegation places from the LL. Nothing much changes for EoS clubs at that point, the EoS would clearly be the easier way to progress in the east and the EoS would have a veto over any future changes. Job done.

Here we go again, so giving clubs a choice is now also classed as anti-Junior I can't be bothered with this shit from you, I have a game to go to.

[Super Saddler]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The SFA also say they are not there to force clubs to do something they don't want to do, they are also not interested in being the ones to hammer the nail in the SJFA's coffin, that much is clear given their efforts to shoehorn them into the Pyramid the way TJ wants.

So the obvious solution is you give clubs a choice, and if Junior football slips into obscurity over time and dies a slow death then so be it, we will eventually have the vast majority of semi-pro clubs in the Pyramid.

Why not? The English FA do this all the time. Next year they have decided to dissolve the  West Midlands Regional League at level 10 founded in 1889 and re-distribute the 49 clubs around other leagues in the pyramid whether the league or the clubs like it or not.

[Jason King]

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As I have stated before you appear to be more anti-junior than pro pyramid. .

Man, you have been drinking the Kool Aid over the last couple of weeks.

[Robert James]

On 30/08/2019 at 10:07, LongTimeLurker said:

Last season the SFA and SJFA were pushing the idea that the ERSJFA's superleague would be a tier 6 feeder to the LL and they didn't seem to see the Tay boundary as being a significant issue. If the SFA's posture shifts after they weren't able to get their way last season in part because of this issue, maybe that's something that might be on the agenda if/when the meetings start up again. Time will tell.

Approximately 200 or so P&B posts ago, my opinion was that there will not be two separate East leagues 'feeding' into the pyramid. Any such idea would be ridiculous and wholly unnecessary. I have not changed my mind since.

League 'duplication' means too many play-offs, too few pyramid promotion opportunities, one too many associations in the same pie, and probably more junior clubs reluctantly  joining something many of them don't believe in, nor want to belong to. There is also a danger we could end up with a lopsided pyramid (in the East) ,, whereas it should/must be a steam-lined structure. The PWG should firmly kick into touch,  any SJFA  'requirement',  that the West and East juniors must join the pyramid at the same time, en massee....... or not join at all.   

Once this principle is understood, junior clubs can make their own choice : join the pyramid in 2020/21, or stay junior. Move on.

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

Approximately 200 or so P&B posts ago, my opinion was that there will not be two separate East leagues 'feeding' into the pyramid. Any such idea would be ridiculous and wholly unnecessary. I have not changed my mind since.

League 'duplication' means too many play-offs, too few pyramid promotion opportunities, one too many associations in the same pie, and probably more junior clubs reluctantly  joining something many of them don't believe in, nor want to belong to. There is also a danger we could end up with a lopsided pyramid (in the East) ,, whereas it should/must be a steam-lined structure. The PWG should firmly kick into touch,  any SJFA  'requirement',  that the West and East juniors must join the pyramid at the same time, en massee....... or not join at all.   

Once this principle is understood, junior clubs can make their own choice : join the pyramid in 2020/21, or stay junior. Move on.

 

Think most are in agreement with you regarding only one EOS section with divisions underneath accordingly 

 

It is simple, if you are looking at it objectively and in the format that they pyramid system is running, then it should be EOS, a SOS and hopefully a WOS but you cannot forget the Highland / potential North area teams.

If all the juniors teams from the west then its just a straight forward four divisions with the current top division as the new WOS in tier 6.

If the East junior teams join in their current format then they could stay in their current format entering in at tier 8 under the EOS and EOS First, I know many in the juniors would not want that but you have to deal with it and that's what happened if your last to enter in a populated area.

The Highland league, if all the North juniors joined then stay as their current format and join in at Tier 6 for the highland section, promotion and relegation.
Not sure about the North Caledonian Football league as they are not incorporated into the pyramid system even though its classed as a senior league.

I suppose the way the format would work, East, West and South would all try to get promoted to the Lowland League and all the North teams would try and get promoted to the highland league.
Obviously the boundary issues for the Tay clubs has to be sorted but if my team was in that area and wanted to be promoted I'd think there was more chance via the North and Highland section than the East section.

The only way forward is to look at it objectively and that means the SFA, The Lowland, Highland, EOS, SOS etc.. and the Junior leagues of the West, East and North.
But boundaries must be sorted and if this means a slight change to the current boundary area then so be it.

 

The junior thread is in favour of only one East, in general, you will get a few with a different view but in general its the same.
https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?/topic/244580-junior-football-what-is-the-future/page/848/#comments