New clubs in the East of Scotland

[vikingTON]

4 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Anyone considered that maybe the West juniors are quite happy as they are? If they were unhappy with Johnston, they'd vote him out. Not everyone sees the pyramid as something to get orgasmic over.

West Junior clubs held a ballot on the matter a couple of years ago which demonstrated overwhelming support for entering the pyramid setup. Needless to say that the form of entry that they favoured was a Walter Mitty idea about them being accepted wholesale into the existing setup, which is the root cause of the current logjam. An underlying lack of interest in entering the pyramid is just not true though: the financial incentives to do so are blatantly obvious to most clubs. 

[Jason King]

43 minutes ago, virginton said:

 the financial incentives to do so are blatantly obvious to most clubs. 

...but the grade!!!

You just have to look at the Talbot fans crowing over beating Dundonald last week and seemingly not realising that Dundonald have a licence and entry to the Scottish Cup every season, Talbot don't and yet those fans cant see that over time Dundonald have the better deal.

[gaz5]

Anyone considered that maybe the West juniors are quite happy as they are? If they were unhappy with Johnston, they'd vote him out. Not everyone sees the pyramid as something to get orgasmic over.

 

Which is exactly why the answer is to stop talking about "the juniors" and set up a WoS league at Tier 6. Invite applications from interested clubs and see where it goes.

 

If there are a host of Junior teams who don't want to move over, West or East, so be it they can stay in the SJFA in their region. Any who do want to move (as well as any other non junior team in the region) can apply to join the WoS or the EoS and on we move forward.

 

The problem we need to solve here, from a pyramid perspective, is a missing West feeder league, not the West juniors being external to the Pyramid. We need to stop framing the debate as if not having the juniors in the pyramid is the problem.

 

Yes the West juniors have all the best non league teams in the West, so the ideal would be that they play in the pyramid feeder, like all the best non league teams (South of the Tay) in the East do now. Yes the easiest way to do that is bring the whole WRSJFA intact. But we've had a year of the SJFA doing everything they can to stop that happening, so time for another approach.

 

Put it into the hands of the clubs. Start a WoS league and let those who want to move over do so. Any who don't, fair enough, they can apply at a later date should they choose to.

 

 

 

 

[Cyclizine]

4 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It was more than likely TJ's insistence that it's west AND east, or nothing.

Plus, he's conveniently forgetting about the north in his 'all in or nothing' proposal. Happy to ignore an entire junior region (that incidentally voted 2:1 in favour of a pyramid).

I struggle to see how this impasse can be resolved at the moment.

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, gaz5 said:

The problem we need to solve here, from a pyramid perspective, is a missing West feeder league, not the West juniors being external to the Pyramid. We need to stop framing the debate as if not having the juniors in the pyramid is the problem.

There's an argument that there's already a west feeder league, i.e. the SoSFL...

The other issue is in the north, which is an entirely different kettle of fish, with no historically 'senior' leagues below the HFL, other than the notionally senior NCL in the Far North.

Either the NRJFA, Tayside ERJFA and NCL need to become feeders or an entirely new invitational league needs formed below the HFL. Neither or which I can see happening any time soon.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

There's an argument that there's already a west feeder league, i.e. the SoSFL...

The other issue is in the north, which is an entirely different kettle of fish, with no historically 'senior' leagues below the HFL, other than the notionally senior NCL in the Far North.

Either the NRJFA, Tayside ERJFA and NCL need to become feeders or an entirely new invitational league needs formed below the HFL. Neither or which I can see happening any time soon.

SosFL now have a team in Ayrshire and Lanarkshire. You can probably fit their combined average attendance on a double Decker bus with room to spare. But theyre there. Nothing stopping a west of Scotland club signing up.

As for the Highland area I'm conflicted over the idea of Brechin getting relegated. Would BoD see that as an excuse not to apply again with the HL back at 18.

[LongTimeLurker]

Do we know for sure that the SoS would be willing to have more than 16 teams?

[Cyclizine]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Do we know for sure that the SoS would be willing to have more than 16 teams?

I was being slightly facetious about the SoSFL, although nothing stopping them inviting applications and going down the EoSFL route with conferences, as unlikely as that is!

19 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As for the Highland area I'm conflicted over the idea of Brechin getting relegated. Would BoD see that as an excuse not to apply again with the HL back at 18.

I think most of the NRJFA teams are just happy with the status quo. Outwith a few bigger clubs, they're mostly just amateur clubs that by a quirk of history are labeled 'juniors'. The majority of clubs with potential to step up to the HFL have already done so.

That's not to say if there was a way to get promoted to the HFL, none of them would go for it, more that most are happy with the idea of a pyramid, but don't think it really applies to them. I don't think you'd see any arguments if the NRJFA etc became a feeder league, just I don't think the clubs would proactively organise it.

Banks o' Dee are in a total sweetspot. Licenced, winning practically all trophies in the north and getting a crack at the Scottish Cup. Personally, I think the only thing that would make them consider applying to the HFL is if the rule about playing in a pyramid league is enforced.

It's a difficult one as I think there should be some form of pyramid across Scotland, but forcing clubs into unsustainable setups isn't the way to do it. The north with its significantly smaller population spread over a much bigger area is a different beast to the east and west.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Do we know for sure that the SoS would be willing to have more than 16 teams?

I don't think they'd encourage it, but they're in the same position as the Highland League where they can't really be seen as saying no.

It's something they have to think about regardless as you've got Dalbeattie and Gretna at the bottom of the Lowland League with 0 points. So there's a good chance they'll have 17 next year unless people are expecting clubs to fold.

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

I was being slightly facetious about the SoSFL, although nothing stopping them inviting applications and going down the EoSFL route with conferences, as unlikely as that is!

I think most of the NRJFA teams are just happy with the status quo. Outwith a few bigger clubs, they're mostly just amateur clubs that by a quirk of history are labeled 'juniors'. The majority of clubs with potential to step up to the HFL have already done so.

That's not to say if there was a way to get promoted to the HFL, none of them would go for it, more that most are happy with the idea of a pyramid, but don't think it really applies to them. I don't think you'd see any arguments if the NRJFA etc became a feeder league, just I don't think the clubs would proactively organise it.

Banks o' Dee are in a total sweetspot. Licenced, winning practically all trophies in the north and getting a crack at the Scottish Cup. Personally, I think the only thing that would make them consider applying to the HFL is if the rule about playing in a pyramid league is enforced.

It's a difficult one as I think there should be some form of pyramid across Scotland, but forcing clubs into unsustainable setups isn't the way to do it. The north with its significantly smaller population spread over a much bigger area is a different beast to the east and west.

I think the north needs a different approach from the south indeed. Probably treat it as England used to treat promotion/relegation between steps 4 and 5. That can be done by putting the NRJFA, NCL and Tayside leagues notionally at tier 6 but without compulsory promotion. Clubs that want to get promoted have to indicate that before a certain cut-off date. If there is any interest and an interested team finishes in the top 2 in their league, they get promoted with the bottom placed HFL team getting relegated. If there are more applicants finishing in a top 2 position, a play-off can be held.  If there is no interest, nothing changes.

In reality this would mean that for a while, nothing much will change. However, clubs that want to, can get access to licensing. In the longer term, eventually compulsory promotion could be possible.

[Ray Patterson]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

I think the north needs a different approach from the south indeed. Probably treat it as England used to treat promotion/relegation between steps 4 and 5. That can be done by putting the NRJFA, NCL and Tayside leagues notionally at tier 6 but without compulsory promotion. Clubs that want to get promoted have to indicate that before a certain cut-off date. If there is any interest and an interested team finishes in the top 2 in their league, they get promoted with the bottom placed HFL team getting relegated. If there are more applicants finishing in a top 2 position, a play-off can be held.  If there is no interest, nothing changes.

In reality this would mean that for a while, nothing much will change. However, clubs that want to, can get access to licensing. In the longer term, eventually compulsory promotion could be possible.

That's pretty much what I had in the Graphic - as License + Lights is needed for HL, only one club fulfil those criteria.

Maybe if there's no relegation from the HL until they reach 18-20 which is the current maximum, this would be just to ensure the likes of Fort William a couple of seasons the get their act together. It also would allow the North Caley League winners a Scottish Cup Berth which would be fair - currently the only Senior League with out one. 

[LongTimeLurker]

Having to accomodate a relegated Fort William is probably not a prospect that fills the NRSJFA  with feelings of joy, so although it's easy enough to do what Marten outlines it's understandable enough that the leagues concerned are in no huge rush to do it.

The Sandy Stables 10-10 split for the HL plan would have been the sensible way to approach having a non-licensed tier 6 and building a pyramid out from there but turkeys don't vote for an early Christmas.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Having to accomodate a relegated Fort William is probably not a prospect that fills the NRSJFA  with feelings of joy, so although it's easy enough to do what Marten outlines it's understandable enough that the leagues concerned are in no huge rush to do it.

The Sandy Stables 10-10 split for the HL plan would have been the sensible way to approach having a non-licensed tier 6 and building a pyramid out from there but turkeys don't vote for an early Christmas.

If you had the 3 feeder system to start then i'm sure Fort William would go to the NCL.

[Hertz1874]

Can we not just have the view that most hearts and hibs fans have?

F€ck the Wild West?

[Cameron Wilson]

6 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If you had the 3 feeder system to start then i'm sure Fort William would go to the NCL.

Didn't Fort used to be in the NCL back in the 80s?

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

Didn't Fort used to be in the NCL back in the 80s?

They were. They've even managed to run a reserve team in it. 

[LongTimeLurker]

All true but when there was a meeting to discuss the pyramid in the north last year it was the SFA, HL and NRSJFA that were there and the NCL never seemed to rate a mention. It's an amateur league after all that has been tottering on the brink of winding up for lack of teams in recent times and plays a relatively short season because summer amateur and welfare leagues tend to dominate in that part of the country.

Edited August 24, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

All true but when there was a meeting to discuss the pyramid in the north last year it was the SFA, HL and NRSJFA that were there and the NCL never seemed to rate a mention. It's an amateur league after all that has been tottering on the brink of winding up for lack of teams in recent times and plays a relatively short season because summer amateur and welfare leagues tend to dominate in that part of the country.

The NCL already adhere to SFA practices related to discipline, registration etc. Had no boundary issues with Inverness City in abeyance. Already had their pyramid update meeting with HFL/SFA reps at the 2018 AGM where the NCL members voted in favour of joining.

3-4 months later the NRJFA/HFL meeting is meant to have amounted to the NRJFA saying they weren't interested.

Not much point in a NCL rep going on a multi hour road trip during the week that amounts to a waste of time.

[LongTimeLurker]

The SFA envisages tier 6 leagues as having 16 clubs and 30 game seasons. Currently the NCL has 9 clubs and a 16 game season with a revolving door on membership because the clubs in the area are finding it difficult to even sustain that sort of setup on an amateur basis. You are taking the NCL much more seriously than it deserves to be taken. A year from now they will probably have lost their only SFA full member if Golspie Sutherland can't get floodlights installed.

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SFA envisages tier 6 leagues as having 16 clubs and 30 game seasons. Currently the NCL has 9 clubs and a 16 game season with a revolving door on membership because the clubs in the area are finding it difficult to even sustain that sort of setup on an amateur basis. You are taking the NCL much more seriously than it deserves to be taken. A year from now they will probably have lost their only SFA full member if Golspie Sutherland can't get floodlights installed.

Golspie have still to have their licensing review in in 2019 so its not clear they would of been told they had until June 2020. That mainly comes from the clubs that were reviewed in June 2019 and didn't have floodlights.

As for taking the NCL seriously. I can't help showing them the same respect as they are shown by the SFA and HFL.

• SFA JPP oversees the NCL competitions

• SFA and HFL gave them a pyramid update at the 2018 NCL AGM. Not sure about 2019.
• NCL clubs involvement in the NoSFA for senior cup competitions with HFL clubs
• NCL clubs involvement in the HFL u-17 league

As for the SFA/Maxwell he only suggests that Tier 6 might comprise of 4x 16 leagues. In the same statement he gets the number of SoSFL clubs wrong. Admits that the HL/LL boundary is still to be resolved and can be looked at in future PWG meeting. This was said in May 2019. The SFA decided to spin off the PWG into Highland and Lowland sections all the way back in September 2018. Which seems a strange thing to do having not resolved the boundary issue in the first place.