New clubs in the East of Scotland

[cmontheloknow]

The membership of the South of Scotland League would be nowhere near the level they are (tier 6) if the pyramid was built from scratch. These are small clubs ran mainly on an amateur basis in a rural part of Scotland with low population. I love the SW and follow the league closely, going to games there when opportunity arises. However, in terms of on-field standard, it is no better than the Ayrshire District League - some good sides, some dreadful ones. I actually think the SoS membership would support being bumped down as none of them seem to have LL aspirations because of the financial burden. Threave have tried and failed twice to play in an Edinburgh-focused league. Wigtown don't seem to fancy the step up, St. Cuthberts, who knows?

Anyway, point I am making is that using the SoS as a vehicle for promotion into the LL for an increased number of clubs from the Greater Glasgow area is flawed. I would predict the more that come in, the more SW sides leave, either for oblivion or the Sunday amateurs - the SoS has been their geographical league for over 70 years!

In terms of Bonnyton Thistle coming in, the original league line-up included teams from Ayrshire so I guess that's a bit like going back to roots, but Killie and Ayr's reserves had gone by the 3rd season and only Girvan hung on from outwith the 'southern counties' once they were admitted in the early 50s.

What has changed a bit as the SoS has evolved is the increased number of teams from the Dumfries end of the region. Annnan's admission in 77 was the first time a team had come in (and stayed... Heathhall did a season early on) from beyond Kirkcudbright. Ayrshire teams travelling to Newton, Tarff, Wigtown etc a bit diffierent to travelling to Dumfries.

Edited June 6, 2017 by cmontheloknow

[Born To Run]

Seems to be that all recent chatter has surrounded Kelty - any update on Bo'ness or the unnamed 3rd club?

[8MileBU]

The solution is simple. The ambitious West clubs propose a West of Scotland (Senior) League to the SFA, which feeds direct into the Lowland League, with the champion club being promoted each season. The SoSL clubs who want to progress within the pyramid, would be offered places in the new WoSL, alongside the West Junior sides. Otherwise the SoSL becomes a feeder league to the WSL
A similar set up (champion club promoted to the Lowland) could exist in the East, with the top 4 or 5 ambitious 'seniors' being joined by (say) 10 junior sides initially. The remaining EoSL clubs would become a feeder as above..  
As a carrot, the SFA could grant the junior clubs who join the new WoSL or the integrated EoSL/ER Superleague, immediate entry to the SFA Cup for a maximum period of 2 years to enable them to obtain a licence. The SJFA Cup would be opened up to Lowland and Highland clubs to participate if they wished to do so. . 
Promotion to the WoSL & EoSL would not be compulsory, as these leagues would have some clubs in membership, who don't wish to (or can't) get licensed. 
"Pyramid Integration by Evolution" 
 

You need to be put in a room with the beaks running football in this country and give them a right good shouting at. It really is as simple as you've described.

[Burnie_man]

8 hours ago, Afrojim said:

 

The reality is that the SFA has to do nothing at all in regards to enticing the junior clubs to join. Nor do they have to do anything to please clubs in the SoSL. Clubs have joined and more clubs will choose to do so in the future.

 

The reality is that as the governing body of football in this country, they have a responsibility to ensure that there is a workable and fair structure in place for ALL clubs should they wish to join the Pyramid and get licenced.

They are so far failing to do that.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, 8MileBU said:

 

 

You need to be put in a room with the beaks running football in this country and give them a right good shouting at. It really is as simple as you've described.

 

It's not as simple as that as the current LL covering the vast amount of clubs south of the Tay is a flawed set-up, it needs regionalised to reflect this. 

Creating a West LL with the West Junior Superleague feeding directly into it appears to be the popular solution. Replicate this in the East. Merge the EoSFL and SoSFL into the existing Junior structure and bingo, you have your Pyramid.

4 way play-off with LL East, LL West, HL and SPFL bottom club.

This is what the likes of Talbot / Bo'ness / Linlithgow / Kelty / Bonnyrigg (and any other interested parties) should have been getting around the table to discuss and ultimately to demand change, it's what I had hoped would happen with the Kelty as a catalyst but they have decided just to leave and get on with what's there, but it doesn't help the overall situation and I'm not sure it will change much unless the other clubs go down this route.

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

...This is what the likes of Talbot / Bo'ness / Linlithgow / Kelty / Bonnyrigg (and any other interested parties) should have been getting around the table to discuss and ultimately to demand change,...

The so called superduperleague was the obvious opportunity for that, but the Ayrshire clubs seem to have been less than keen.

[Burnie_man]

51 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The so called superduperleague was the obvious opportunity for that, but the Ayrshire clubs seem to have been less than keen.

The Sooperdooper League isn't really the answer, but at least it would get the top clubs round the table to discuss where to go from here, they should be looking to do that anyway to find common ground and a way forward.

[CH86]

The SOS league covers the same geographical area as the west juniors, but there are only 4 clubs(EK, BSC, Cumbernauld and Bonnyton) who come under SOS from out with D&G, and Kello are the only D&G club who are in the SJFA. The same issue would happen if, for example, Tarff Rovers re-formed and wanted to join the SJFA as they would have play in the Ayrshire district league.

If the west juniors came across enmasse the best solution would be for SOS (D&G) league to become a third district below the top west leagues, with the west premier winner taking part in the promotion playoff for the lowland league. A similar solution could be found if the same thing happened with the east juniors although there is more crossover geographically with clubs coming from the same areas.

[Afrojim]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

The reality is that as the governing body of football in this country, they have a responsibility to ensure that there is a workable and fair structure in place for ALL clubs should they wish to join the Pyramid and get licenced.

They are so far failing to do that.

I agree with you entirely. Equality has to be the key principle when forming a pyramid structure. To have the current Lowland region at tier 5 is quite sensible as the clubs currently participating in it are proving that they are willing, but most importantly, capable of covering a wider geographical area before potentially stepping up to the national SPFL. The worst thing that could happen is a club stepping up to the SPFL from a smaller regional/local league and realising they are not able to compete and having to pull out of League Two mid-season - that would be disastrous for the idea that a pyramid is beneficial to Scottish football. 

What the SFA needs to do is work on tier 6 of the pyramid as it is grossly unequal at the moment. The area that the EoSL covers is roughly 120 miles north to south (north Fife to Tweedmouth) and around 90 miles east to west (Eyemouth to Stirlingshire). The equivalent league at tier 6 only covers Dumfries & Galloway except for 1 new club. Immediately clubs in the SoSL are being handed a competitive advantage as their costs of participating are far less. As examples, Kirkcudbright to Helensburgh is 120 miles, Girvan to Shotts is only 80 miles. If a club in North Fife decided to join the set-up then EoSL clubs would be expected to just accept it and get on with it. If equality is the aim then why should it not be the same for the SoSL?

There's only really two options at tier 6. The SFA can allow the SoSL to gradually evolve to include clubs in an expanded geographical area or they can intervene and set up an entirely new league that covers that wider geographical area. What I was saying in my last post is that the SFA's hand is not being forced as clubs in the west have been willing to join and more will likely follow. That means that the ball is in the Junior clubs court not the SFA's. Will some of the west junior clubs join and attempt to reform the system from the inside? 

The best option in the long term may be to add a second tier to the Lowland League (at tier 6) and have this tier split into East and West and allow clubs to join these leagues from the SoSL, EoSL, juniors, amateur, welfare, youth leagues etc. Whether they set up new leagues or expand the current ones the geographical areas need to be similar in size in order for it to be fair and equal. 

The South-East region should cover these council areas - City of Edinburgh, Fife, West Lothian, Falkirk, Perth & Kinross (the bit south of the Tay), Scottish Borders, East Lothian, Stirling, Midlothian, Clackmannanshire. Total Population = 1,802,490

The South-West Region should cover these council areas - Glasgow City, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Dumfries & Galloway, North Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, South Ayrshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, West Dunbartonshire, Argyll & Bute (the bit south of the Tay), Inverclyde. Total Population = 2,411,530

The only disparity between these regions is population size, but every council area (except for East Renfrewshire) in the South-West region that I have proposed is experiencing a long-term decline in population (Glasgow 712,000 residents in 1981, 606,000 residents by 2015. Inverclyde a 22% reduction in population in the same period etc.) All of the areas in the East region are experiencing population booms, based on current trends Edinburgh will be bigger than Glasgow in the next 10-20 years, Dunfermline and Livingston will likely be bigger than Paisley and East Kilbride in the same time period, Musselburgh is now bigger than Dumbarton etc. As most of the increases in the east are due to people relocating there from the west then the population sizes will roughly be the same in a decade. 

The SFA have clarified the licensing criteria. If they were to clarify these regions and allow clubs that wish to participate the opportunity to do so then we have a Lowland region that is truly egalitarian. The regions are roughly equal in size and in a few years will be in terms of population. All clubs will have clarity in advance of making a decision as to whether or not to join and they know what is expected of them should they join. Everybody is included if they want to be and nobody is excluded against their will. Amateur clubs in Argyll & Bute or the Borders are being treated the same as senior clubs in D&G or Junior clubs in Ayrshire/the central belt/Fife etc. Every club is equal and the only distinction between clubs is that they are either licensed and can participate or unlicensed and can't fully participate until they get a license. 

That said, no club should be forced to live beyond their means by a Governing Body. The SFA should not force clubs to be promoted nor should they force licensed clubs to participate in leagues that are no longer suitable to their needs. If the SoSL does gradually evolve to cover a wider geographic area then clubs that have been competing in the SoSL since it was tacked onto the structure at tier 6 should be allowed to leave that league without any repercussions. If a new South-West league is formed at some point then Licensed SoSL clubs shouldn't be forced to participate in that league either - the SoSL can simply be placed further down the pyramid or become the Lowland version of the North Caledonian league - senior in name only, not part of the structure but still an important local league to have in the area. 

It's fair, it's equal and all individual clubs have clarity, freedom of choice and control over what happens to them.

 

 

[Rab B Nesbit]

19 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It would have been nice for Kelty to have remained in the Juniors and along with other like minded clubs, worked with the SJFA and SFA towards bringing the Juniors into the Pyramid in a structured manner.  Whether other clubs follow remains to be seen but it doesn't change the fact the structure is flawed and the West clubs in reality have nowhere to go if they wanted to follow Kelty (SoS is not a viable option).

How long do they wait though. Will be great to see Kelty make the switch and hopefully more to follow. 

[Burnie_man]

47 minutes ago, Afrojim said:

I agree with you entirely. Equality has to be the key principle when forming a pyramid structure. To have the current Lowland region at tier 5 is quite sensible as the clubs currently participating in it are proving that they are willing, but most importantly, capable of covering a wider geographical area before potentially stepping up to the national SPFL. The worst thing that could happen is a club stepping up to the SPFL from a smaller regional/local league and realising they are not able to compete and having to pull out of League Two mid-season - that would be disastrous for the idea that a pyramid is beneficial to Scottish football. 

What the SFA needs to do is work on tier 6 of the pyramid as it is grossly unequal at the moment. The area that the EoSL covers is roughly 120 miles north to south (north Fife to Tweedmouth) and around 90 miles east to west (Eyemouth to Stirlingshire). The equivalent league at tier 6 only covers Dumfries & Galloway except for 1 new club. Immediately clubs in the SoSL are being handed a competitive advantage as their costs of participating are far less. As examples, Kirkcudbright to Helensburgh is 120 miles, Girvan to Shotts is only 80 miles. If a club in North Fife decided to join the set-up then EoSL clubs would be expected to just accept it and get on with it. If equality is the aim then why should it not be the same for the SoSL?

There's only really two options at tier 6. The SFA can allow the SoSL to gradually evolve to include clubs in an expanded geographical area or they can intervene and set up an entirely new league that covers that wider geographical area. What I was saying in my last post is that the SFA's hand is not being forced as clubs in the west have been willing to join and more will likely follow. That means that the ball is in the Junior clubs court not the SFA's. Will some of the west junior clubs join and attempt to reform the system from the inside? 

The best option in the long term may be to add a second tier to the Lowland League (at tier 6) and have this tier split into East and West and allow clubs to join these leagues from the SoSL, EoSL, juniors, amateur, welfare, youth leagues etc. Whether they set up new leagues or expand the current ones the geographical areas need to be similar in size in order for it to be fair and equal. 

The South-East region should cover these council areas - City of Edinburgh, Fife, West Lothian, Falkirk, Perth & Kinross (the bit south of the Tay), Scottish Borders, East Lothian, Stirling, Midlothian, Clackmannanshire. Total Population = 1,802,490

The South-West Region should cover these council areas - Glasgow City, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Dumfries & Galloway, North Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, South Ayrshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, West Dunbartonshire, Argyll & Bute (the bit south of the Tay), Inverclyde. Total Population = 2,411,530

The only disparity between these regions is population size, but every council area (except for East Renfrewshire) in the South-West region that I have proposed is experiencing a long-term decline in population (Glasgow 712,000 residents in 1981, 606,000 residents by 2015. Inverclyde a 22% reduction in population in the same period etc.) All of the areas in the East region are experiencing population booms, based on current trends Edinburgh will be bigger than Glasgow in the next 10-20 years, Dunfermline and Livingston will likely be bigger than Paisley and East Kilbride in the same time period, Musselburgh is now bigger than Dumbarton etc. As most of the increases in the east are due to people relocating there from the west then the population sizes will roughly be the same in a decade. 

The SFA have clarified the licensing criteria. If they were to clarify these regions and allow clubs that wish to participate the opportunity to do so then we have a Lowland region that is truly egalitarian. The regions are roughly equal in size and in a few years will be in terms of population. All clubs will have clarity in advance of making a decision as to whether or not to join and they know what is expected of them should they join. Everybody is included if they want to be and nobody is excluded against their will. Amateur clubs in Argyll & Bute or the Borders are being treated the same as senior clubs in D&G or Junior clubs in Ayrshire/the central belt/Fife etc. Every club is equal and the only distinction between clubs is that they are either licensed and can participate or unlicensed and can't fully participate until they get a license. 

That said, no club should be forced to live beyond their means by a Governing Body. The SFA should not force clubs to be promoted nor should they force licensed clubs to participate in leagues that are no longer suitable to their needs. If the SoSL does gradually evolve to cover a wider geographic area then clubs that have been competing in the SoSL since it was tacked onto the structure at tier 6 should be allowed to leave that league without any repercussions. If a new South-West league is formed at some point then Licensed SoSL clubs shouldn't be forced to participate in that league either - the SoSL can simply be placed further down the pyramid or become the Lowland version of the North Caledonian league - senior in name only, not part of the structure but still an important local league to have in the area. 

It's fair, it's equal and all individual clubs have clarity, freedom of choice and control over what happens to them.

 

 

The simple fact is, to have HL and LL as equal steps in the Pyramid is disproportionate.  The volume of clubs south of the Tay illustrates that.  A 16 team league potentially serving 200 semi-pro clubs (LL) versus one potentially serving maybe 40/50 (HL), it's lopsided.

The Junior structure as it is perfectly suits tier 5 criteria, in a West and East LL set-up with Junior involvement, it would be stronger than the current LL is now.

Problem is with all this or course, is getting everyone round the table to discuss this without any agendas. An almost impossible task.

[FairWeatherFan]

If you want to know how truly daft the situation is, think about BSC Glasgow getting relegated from the Lowland League this year.

[newcastle broon]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If you want to know how truly daft the situation is, think about BSC Glasgow getting relegated from the Lowland League this year.

BSC Glasgow are nowhere near to being relegated any time soon bud. If anything they are getting stronger every season. 

The only problem they have is finding land big enough in Glasgow to have their own set up. 

[FairWeatherFan]

10 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

BSC Glasgow are nowhere near to being relegated any time soon bud. If anything they are getting stronger every season. 

The only problem they have is finding land big enough in Glasgow to have their own set up. 

Good to know. As a piss poor gambler, I've always said there's not enough certainty in sport.

If you want a more likely situation that could highlight the inadequacy of the current pyramid, picture this:

Summer 2018 a random West of Scotland Junior or Community club applies to join the SoS. Only the SoS play the Highland League card of we're FULL.

[calmac25]

Good to know. As a piss poor gambler, I've always said there's not enough certainty in sport.
If you want a more likely situation that could highlight the inadequacy of the current pyramid, picture this:
Summer 2018 a random West of Scotland Junior or Community club applies to join the SoS. Only the SoS play the Highland League card of we're FULL.

I highly doubt this would be the case, the documents around at the time the lowland league started said any new members could join SoS or EoS. The EoS has previously had 2 leagues anyway.

I agree with a previous poster that it may be better to set up a new South West league open​ to clubs from the South who feel they could progress and any outward looking junior teams like Clydebank, Auchinleck or Girvan

[drs]

13 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

BSC Glasgow are nowhere near to being relegated any time soon bud. If anything they are getting stronger every season. 

You've missed the point he was making - he didn't say BSC Alloa would be relegated he said the problem would be if they were relegated.

I'll let you work out what the problem would be.

[drs]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Good to know. As a piss poor gambler, I've always said there's not enough certainty in sport.

If you want a more likely situation that could highlight the inadequacy of the current pyramid, picture this:

Summer 2018 a random West of Scotland Junior or Community club applies to join the SoS. Only the SoS play the Highland League card of we're FULL.

It needs a Junior or Am club from north of the Tay to test this to see what would happen. Kelty have the pathway into the LL via the EoS but would happen if for example Lochee United, Golspie Sutherland or Banks O'Dee asked the SFA for permission to join the pyramid what happens to them?  It wouldn't be fair that Kelty can be in the SPFL by the end of their 2nd season in the senior game whilst the aforementioned north of the Tay teams have nowhere to go.

[newcastle broon]

2 minutes ago, drs said:

You've missed the point he was making - he didn't say BSC Alloa would be relegated he said the problem would be if they were relegated.

I'll let you work out what the problem would be.

But they WON'T be relegated anytime soon though . Have I missed something here have BSC had a name change that I've missed somewhere. 

Yous can all be as sarcastic as yous want the Pyramid will have its flaws but I think it's here to stay and again well done Kelty for starting to attempt the divide between the 2 associations. 

[newcastle broon]

9 minutes ago, drs said:

It needs a Junior or Am club from north of the Tay to test this to see what would happen. Kelty have the pathway into the LL via the EoS but would happen if for example Lochee United, Golspie Sutherland or Banks O'Dee asked the SFA for permission to join the pyramid what happens to them?  It wouldn't be fair that Kelty can be in the SPFL by the end of their 2nd season in the senior game whilst the aforementioned north of the Tay teams have nowhere to go.

Good point there should be something below HFL level similar to the SoSFL and EoSFL. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by newcastle broon

[drs]

33 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

But they WON'T be relegated anytime soon though . Have I missed something here have BSC had a name change that I've missed somewhere. 

Yous can all be as sarcastic as yous want the Pyramid will have its flaws but I think it's here to stay and again well done Kelty for starting to attempt the divide between the 2 associations. 

You are missing the point around this query.

No one has said they are going to be relegated or are in danger of being relegated, the original post was a hypothetical question as to what would happen if BSC were relegated - and the point still stands.