New clubs in the East of Scotland

[zenon]

Here is my solution to resolve the Tayside pyramid problem once and for all.

Dundee clubs, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Panmure and Scone Thistle move to the EOS.

Rest of the Angus clubs, Blairgowrie and Coupar Angus and any willing Perthshire applicants north of the boundary move to the Northern feeder.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

Lochee to Wick is a tier 5 journey so not the same as comparing it to a tier 6/7 trip to Eyemouth. Or even Berwick in tier 5, which is the same as a trip to Rothes.

At tier 6 Lochee would be playing in a Tayside League or in a North Superleague made up of Tayside and mainly Aberdeen clubs. Once they have floodlights, a licence and a league win then they can get promoted to the HL. By that point the make up of the HL will have changed - Brechin might have joined, Fort William probably relegated out, Banks o'Dee possibly in there as well.

I see your point but no one should have to do a 9 hour round trip for a league game at non league level. It’s just ridiculous and the construct of the league won’t change quickly, could put teams out the game. 
 

For me it’s common sense.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

54 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Wick are one club and the most extreme outlier in the Highland League. That's one league game a season. It's amazing how many are scared of that prospect. It's the same nonsense of Elgin on a wet Tuesday.

As for North of Inverness do you mean actually North of Inverness travel wise? Because if you do that's only 2/17 clubs in the Highland League (Wick and Brora).

Or geographically Northern to Inverness which would include the likes Fraserburgh who are basically on the East coast?

 

Yeah I meant north as in north.

im just saying for Lochee, most likely to be promoted they would really be looking at least a 4 hour round trip to around 80% of the league games. The closest would be Inverurie, 1.5 hrs away.

that’s unfair surely at tier 5?

[invergowrie arab]

3 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I see your point but no one should have to do a 9 hour round trip for a league game at non league level. It’s just ridiculous and the construct of the league won’t change quickly, could put teams out the game. 
 

For me it’s common sense.

And yet Cove, Inverurie,  Formartine have all managed it for years, as indeed do Wick going the other way.

It's not the juniors where everyone needs to be home by 6pm.

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I see your point but no one should have to do a 9 hour round trip for a league game at non league level. It’s just ridiculous and the construct of the league won’t change quickly, could put teams out the game. 
 

For me it’s common sense.

If for example, Forfar West End got to the Lowland League, they would be expected to travel to Dalbeattie (6.5hr round trip) Gretna (6 hour round trip), Berwick (5.5hr, same as Fort William), and if Stranraer ever got relegated it would be over 7 hours (same as Brora).

Wick is just the one game.

[GordonS]

8 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I see your point but no one should have to do a 9 hour round trip for a league game at non league level. It’s just ridiculous and the construct of the league won’t change quickly, could put teams out the game. 
 

For me it’s common sense.

That's Scotland.

If we're having two leagues at Tier 5 then the Tay is a completely sensible place to draw the line. If you draw it where you suggest then the northern "half" would cover less than a tenth of the population. I know the northern part should have significant allowances for the distances, but at that level I'd argue they shouldn't be at tier 5.

Edited March 8, 2021 by GordonS

[Cyclizine]

6 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Yeah I meant north as in north.

im just saying for Lochee, most likely to be promoted they would really be looking at least a 4 hour round trip to around 80% of the league games. The closest would be Inverurie, 1.5 hrs away.

that’s unfair surely at tier 5?

Tier 5 is the level below the nationwide leagues. If clubs don't want to do the travelling, then they can stay in their local leagues.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

3 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

If for example, Forfar West End got to the Lowland League, they would be expected to travel to Dalbeattie (6.5hr round trip) Gretna (6 hour round trip), Berwick (5.5hr, same as Fort William), and if Stranraer ever got relegated it would be over 7 hours (same as Brora).

Wick is just the one game.

Yeah fair point I hadn’t thought of it like that.

It just feels like joining the Highland scrapping any sort of local game for tayside clubs. It’s a hard enough move over without completely changing culture like that. 
 

previous poster about it not being the juniors, I get that but the pyramid should be trying to get everyone involved and to basically condemn a number of clubs who have played south of a line for years for basically 10 mins more travel time for me feels a bit harsh.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t miss travelling away up there either but they are good clubs and we don’t want to lose them due to a geography point.

[Burnieman]

Just now, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Yeah fair point I hadn’t thought of it like that.

It just feels like joining the Highland scrapping any sort of local game for tayside clubs. It’s a hard enough move over without completely changing culture like that. 
 

previous poster about it not being the juniors, I get that but the pyramid should be trying to get everyone involved and to basically condemn a number of clubs who have played south of a line for years for basically 10 mins more travel time for me feels a bit harsh.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t miss travelling away up there either but they are good clubs and we don’t want to lose them due to a geography point.

The smaller clubs still play in the ERJFA, the better clubs would perhaps join forces with the better NRJFA clubs in a combined top division, the winners go to the HL.  something like that is fairly straightforward and very workable.  I'm fairly sure that the bigger Dundee area clubs will easily cope with the demands of the HL and attract renewed interest, and after a few years there may be more than one or two in there anyway, along with the likes of Banks O'Dee.

Let's remember they already have a Tayside/North Cup in the Juniors, so both leagues know the lie of the land.

[invergowrie arab]

4 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Yeah fair point I hadn’t thought of it like that.

It just feels like joining the Highland scrapping any sort of local game for tayside clubs. It’s a hard enough move over without completely changing culture like that. 
 

previous poster about it not being the juniors, I get that but the pyramid should be trying to get everyone involved and to basically condemn a number of clubs who have played south of a line for years for basically 10 mins more travel time for me feels a bit harsh.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t miss travelling away up there either but they are good clubs and we don’t want to lose them due to a geography point.

Clubs will find their level.

Nobody is suggesting Tier 6 should be Highland wide. 

Give it 10 years Lochee, Broughty, Carnoustie and maybe even a Downfield or North End would all be in the same division.

Kirrie and Blair never need worry about it.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Yeah I meant north as in north.

im just saying for Lochee, most likely to be promoted they would really be looking at least a 4 hour round trip to around 80% of the league games. The closest would be Inverurie, 1.5 hrs away.

that’s unfair surely at tier 5?

Flip it round, Wick's closest game is Brora and then its 2 hours to Inverness where they have to get to or pass through for the other 15 league games. 16 until the recent promotion of Cove. 

Never see them complaining. Hell, they signed up for that before there was even a pyramid. 

[GordonS]

3 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Yeah fair point I hadn’t thought of it like that.

It just feels like joining the Highland scrapping any sort of local game for tayside clubs. It’s a hard enough move over without completely changing culture like that. 
 

previous poster about it not being the juniors, I get that but the pyramid should be trying to get everyone involved and to basically condemn a number of clubs who have played south of a line for years for basically 10 mins more travel time for me feels a bit harsh.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t miss travelling away up there either but they are good clubs and we don’t want to lose them due to a geography point.

Ten years from now Linlithgow Rose might be in a league with 15 Ayrshire and Glasgow clubs (while Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg and Kelty are in L1 and L2). Yeah, we'll miss the derbies but we'll be in a league with no haddies, which will be tight, competitive and exciting.

It's always tough on clubs that are close to boundaries, especially when the boundaries change. But this is one of the costs of finally uniting the systems and getting rid of the artificial divides. Lochee Utd might be in a league with median journeys of about 2 hours each way instead of one hour, and a couple of long trips each season, but they'll be playing against peers instead of local cannon fodder. And that's assuming they're good enough to go up and stay up.

[Dev]

5 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

They might have got their exception if it wasnt for their friends in armadale.

Maybe both leagues will still grant them an exception?

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

A great read!

I wonder if the "will not affect any club already in membership" bit will cause some more northern East Juniors to try to get on board the EoS now rather than wait for a new senior league to come along and start in the north of Tay Bridge area? Would they be accepted?

[Ginaro]

32 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Yeah I meant north as in north.

im just saying for Lochee, most likely to be promoted they would really be looking at least a 4 hour round trip to around 80% of the league games. The closest would be Inverurie, 1.5 hrs away.

that’s unfair surely at tier 5?

By the time Lochee get to the Highland League, Brechin will probably be their closest game! Or who knows, while Lochee spend money on their ground - a club like Broughty with their new ground/floodlights or Banks o'Dee with their licence might be the first teams to get promoted.

Lochee and Wick is the most extreme example, and there's always going to be an extreme in any league if you take the furthest away teams! But the fact is, the HL and LL are one level below playing nationally in the SPFL so a bit of travel is to be expected when you've got to cover half the country. 

 

But wait - the boundary debate is back on! 

[invergowrie arab]

FFS

[Dev]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Lochee deserve a route into the pyramid, but the problem is they put all their eggs in the SJFA basket hoping they'd find a way to get them in.

Now, talking of boundaries - can we get an application from the amateurs of Drymen United to test whether all of Stirling Council = EOS 

Maybe the EoS/Tayside will also come to a mutual agreement on boundaries using Local Council boundaries with exception for existing clubs? Luncarty staying EoS. Scone and Tayport staying Tayside if they wish to stay with a Tayside league within in the (North) Pyramid.

[Dev]

53 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

The smaller clubs still play in the ERJFA, the better clubs would perhaps join forces with the better NRJFA clubs in a combined top division, the winners go to the HL.  something like that is fairly straightforward and very workable.  I'm fairly sure that the bigger Dundee area clubs will easily cope with the demands of the HL and attract renewed interest, and after a few years there may be more than one or two in there anyway, along with the likes of Banks O'Dee.

Let's remember they already have a Tayside/North Cup in the Juniors, so both leagues know the lie of the land.

A north of Tay division without the better current Tayside Juniors may start to attract the better Amateurs and the ambitious Youth clubs like the ones which are showing these days in the south.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Dev
.

[LongTimeLurker]

6 hours ago, Ginaro said:

By the time Lochee get to the Highland League, Brechin will probably be their closest game! Or who knows, while Lochee spend money on their ground - a club like Broughty with their new ground/floodlights or Banks o'Dee with their licence might be the first teams to get promoted.

Lochee and Wick is the most extreme example, and there's always going to be an extreme in any league if you take the furthest away teams! But the fact is, the HL and LL are one level below playing nationally in the SPFL so a bit of travel is to be expected when you've got to cover half the country. 

 

But wait - the boundary debate is back on! 

It's still a form of clarification, so whoever was quizzing the guy last night to state it crystal clearly was doing something worthwhile, because it lead to an equally unambiguous retraction.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[LongTimeLurker]

9 hours ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I see your point but no one should have to do a 9 hour round trip for a league game at non league level. It’s just ridiculous and the construct of the league won’t change quickly, could put teams out the game. 
 

For me it’s common sense.

There's a group of posters on here who became emotionally invested in this idea that the Tay Bridge line of latitude was a fixed boundary even at tier 6 and they have been insistent and obsessive enough about it to an extent that even the EoS twitter guy believed it to be the case until corrected by the powers that be in EoS terms. Now that has been clarified unambiguously hopefully a wider range of perspectives will be listened to respectfully on here. More importantly hopefully the people that actually matter will come up with a sensible resolution soon that works accetptably for all parties involved whatever that may be. I have no strong opinion beyond there having to be a clear and straightforward way in available for every Tayside club.

A three way north-west-east split at tier 5 would probably have been the best way to do it from the outset so the HL catchment wouldn't become even more drastic in travel terms but would be better balanced in population terms with two other feeders covering the central belt. It's probably too late in the day for that now, unfortunately, after option Z got nowhere early last year. Ironically the people who were most vociferously against that proposal on here support or represented clubs who would probably have benefited most from it in the longer term because down the road the LL is likely to become west dominated under a two way tier 5 split and the east is likely to be underrepresented at the level where you get a shot at promotion to the SPFL.

Edited March 9, 2021 by LongTimeLurker