New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Burnieman]

You have to consider that since football was invented, Linlithgowshire and then West Lothian, has always been east of Scotland with very few exceptions. The West Lothian/Lanarkshire boundary was the dividing line in Junior football for a century or more.

Pre-War there were a couple of exceptions, with Fauldhouse United playing for a time in the Lanarkshire Junior League (at a time when West Lothian Junior football was pretty unstable) and previous clubs in Harthill likewise (although the ground was probably in Lanarkshire as well anyway).

Armadale, Bathgate, Whitburn, Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Broxburn all big West Lothian Junior rivalries in years gone by, and trips/visits to/by Newtongrange, Arniston, Musselburgh, Tranent etc were always well attended.   It would be ill-advised for any of the current WL Junior clubs to seek to go to the West, and for what purpose exactly, bitterness from the current custodians of the club?  Would West clubs even want them?  If a few try their luck and are rejected, with the EoS deadline having passed, then what.....

Edited January 25, 2021 by Burnieman

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

It would be ill-advised for any of the current WL Junior clubs to seek to go to the West, and for what purpose exactly, bitterness from the current custodians of the club?  Would West clubs even want them?  If a few try their luck and are rejected, with the EoS deadline having passed, then what.....

Before the full impact of COVID was known, there was a stronger call for regionalised Conferences when everyone thought they would enter at Tier 6. For the majority of Central clubs it wouldn't mean much having West Lothian clubs. Not sure the Ayrshire clubs would be keen at the lower level. It seems daft to be scared of trips to the Borders but accept journeys to Maybole and Girvan.

With the West looking to go Premier-First-Second-Third following next year maybe they would regionalise the lowest tier if they have the numbers which could prevent that longer term.

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Before the full impact of COVID was known, there was a stronger call for regionalised Conferences when everyone thought they would enter at Tier 6. For the majority of Central clubs it wouldn't mean much having West Lothian clubs. Not sure the Ayrshire clubs would be keen at the lower level. It seems daft to be scared of trips to the Borders but accept journeys to Maybole and Girvan.

With the West looking to go Premier-First-Second-Third following next year maybe they would regionalise the lowest tier if they have the numbers which could prevent that longer term.

I just don't see any logic or benefit in walking away from the opportunity to re-kindle old rivalries which in turn increases interest.  Forget what has happened in the past, where do they want to be in 5 years time, I would have thought Armadale, Fauldhouse, Whitburn etc would want to be playing Linlithgow, Broxburn, Musselburgh, Newtongrange etc,  not some random Ayrshire and Glasgow teams.  If Whitburn and Bathgate were to go one way and Armadale and Fauldhouse the other, what good does that do for any of them.

I don't think it will come to that anyway. The WoS and EoS probably know where to draw the line and from what I hear 4 or 5 WL clubs are intending to or have applied to the EoS anyway. The west doesn't need the WL stragglers, and if one or two apply and are rejected they could find themselves in a difficult position.

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I just don't see any logic or benefit in walking away from the opportunity to re-kindle old rivalries which in turn increases interest.  Forget what has happened in the past, where do they want to be in 5 years time, I would have thought Armadale, Fauldhouse, Whitburn etc would want to be playing Linlithgow, Broxburn, Musselburgh, Newtongrange etc,  not some random Ayrshire and Glasgow teams.  If Whitburn and Bathgate were to go one way and Armadale and Fauldhouse the other, what good does that do for any of them.

I don't think it will come to that anyway. The WoS and EoS probably know where to draw the line and from what I hear 4 or 5 WL clubs are intending to or have applied to the EoS anyway. The west doesn't need the WL stragglers, and if one or two apply and are rejected they could find themselves in a difficult position.

I dont see it happening. I can see on an individual level why certain clubs would consider it. 

[Burnieman]

12 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I dont see it happening. I can see on an individual level why certain clubs would consider it. 

I can see why Harthill would perhaps consider it as they straddle the "border" like Luncarty, but again they're closer to a whole load more WL clubs that anywhere else.  If you flip it, would Shotts, Forth, Wishaw and Newmains fancy a leap in the other direction?  It gets messy.

[LongTimeLurker]

The angle that may also be very important to some people at a club like Armadale (judging from the content of their twitter feed in recent years anyway) is that they can stay in the SJFA as part of the WoS. It might not only be about geography. Best thing that could happen is that the SCC and SJC are simply merged pronto to form an even bigger and better competition than the SJC of old but it's Scottish football, so that particular saga may drag on for a few more years if bitter old men with blazers want their cup to be seen to vanquish the other one.

[AlanCamelonfan]

27 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The angle that may also be very important to some people at a club like Armadale (judging from the content of their twitter feed in recent years anyway) is that they can stay in the SJFA as part of the WoS. It might not only be about geography. Best thing that could happen is that the SCC and SJC are simply merged pronto to form an even bigger and better competition than the SJC of old but it's Scottish football, so that particular saga may drag on for a few more years if bitter old men with blazers want their cup to be seen to vanquish the other one.

So what makes it better if everyone moved over theyd play in south challenge cup. Merging the two would just make it the same as south challenge cup. So unless it's the junior  cup it would be pointless. The holy grail junior cup would have no east teams other than tayside to play less teams than they would in south challenge. The only difference would be tayside and north juniors. 

[Ginaro]

Maybe just one club, i.e. Harthill, is more likely to be accepted by the WOS since they have a space in one of their conferences.

Though wasn't there something said in a press release or statement earlier in the year about discussion of boundaries when setting up the WOS?

58 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The angle that may also be very important to some people at a club like Armadale (judging from the content of their twitter feed in recent years anyway) is that they can stay in the SJFA as part of the WoS. It might not only be about geography. Best thing that could happen is that the SCC and SJC are simply merged pronto to form an even bigger and better competition than the SJC of old but it's Scottish football, so that particular saga may drag on for a few more years if bitter old men with blazers want their cup to be seen to vanquish the other one.

That's asking for the LL/EOS/SOS/WOS to turn the SCC into a national cup and invite teams outwith the Lowland area, or for the SJFA to change their rules and invite all the senior clubs to the SJC. I can't see either happening.

[Pyramidic]

Any news on Linlithgow Rose Community Juniors FC that went into abeyance for the 2020/21 season? Will they return to the Amateurs for 2021/22 if Covid subsides? Or is an application to the EOSFL imminent?

Questions remain:
1. Could the Xcite Linlithgow Leisure Centre be upgraded for Senior football?
2. Would the club have to change their name?

Anybody residing in or around Linlithgow know the latest position?

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

..or for the SJFA to change their rules and invite all the senior clubs to the SJC...

You are aware that WoS clubs are now allowed into the SJC as they were allowed to retain their SJFA membership? Rules have already been changed in a big way. As things stand at the moment the LL has a role in overseeing the WoS, but it will start flying solo soon with its own officeholders. There's scope for all sorts of fun and games in terms of blazer politics in the months and years ahead, if the next set of officeholders were SJFA-orientated. No idea how likely that is.

The sensible things to happen next would be that all West Lothian clubs join the EoS, the various tribute acts go back to being amateur, Harthill get to choose because they legitimately straddle the line in terms of their local community, the mess in Tayside gets fixed through constructive engagement rather than having that part of the country being viewed as way too far to travel by all and sundry, and the SJFA, WoS, EoS, HL, LL and SoS find a way to have a national nonleague cup similar to the FA Trophy and Vase down south.

[Jimi Shandrix]

14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You are aware that WoS clubs are now allowed into the SJC as they were allowed to retain their SJFA membership? Rules have already been changed in a big way. As things stand at the moment the LL has a role in overseeing the WoS, but it will start flying solo soon with its own officeholders. There's scope for all sorts of fun and games in terms of blazer politics in the months and years ahead, if the next set of officeholders were SJFA-orientated. No idea how likely that is.

The sensible things to happen next would be that all West Lothian clubs join the EoS, the various tribute acts go back to being amateur, Harthill get to choose because they legitimately straddle the line in terms of their local community, the mess in Tayside gets fixed through constructive engagement rather than having that part of the country being viewed as way too far to travel by all and sundry, and the SJFA, WoS, EoS, HL, LL and SoS find a way to have a national nonleague cup similar to the FA Trophy and Vase down south.

1/ Would a national cup for all teams below tier 4 to replace SJC and SCC not be a good idea?

2/  I wholeheartedly agree with the bold bit.

3/ Are people on here still of the opinion that a Midlands League at tier 6 absolutely wont happen, thus sorting the Tayside problem if all remaining teams decide to get on the pyramid bus?

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

1/ Would a national cup for all teams below tier 4 to replace SJC and SCC not be a good idea?

Good idea if properly supported, just not a priority right now. Saying just merge the SJC and SCC now misses out Highland League. So isn't a true National Non-League cup but people are trying to grasp to nostalgia.

Next year the WoS Premier is probably going to attempt their 38 game league season and have a WoS Cup with a small handful of newly licenced clubs entering the Scottish Cup. So that's another year where it isn't a great concern due to a tight calendar without factoring lingering impact of COVID.

4 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

2/  I wholeheartedly agree with the bold bit.

They probably will. Harthill might fancy the WoS instead of the EoS though. They know they're going to be in the bottom tier of whichever league they join and probably hope it will be regionalised at that level. In the West that would mean a Greater Glasgow area league. In the East it would likely be a South Division with trips to the Borders.

4 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

3/ Are people on here still of the opinion that a Midlands League at tier 6 absolutely wont happen, thus sorting the Tayside problem if all remaining teams decide to get on the pyramid bus?

A Midland League idea suggested by some Junior reps on podcasts involves  Fife and Perthshire teams in that league. Instead of streamlining or building a pyramid you're basically ripping it up with no obvious benefit. You've got to get those clubs already in the pyramid to agree to that disruption and other leagues agree to adding a league to the playoff. It's not likely to gain enough support.

Tayside really is a case of apply to the EoSFL or become a feeder to the Highland League in some way.

[Jimi Shandrix]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Good idea if properly supported, just not a priority right now. Saying just merge the SJC and SCC now misses out Highland League. So isn't a true National Non-League cup but people are trying to grasp to nostalgia.

Next year the WoS Premier is probably going to attempt their 38 game league season and have a WoS Cup with a small handful of newly licenced clubs entering the Scottish Cup. So that's another year where it isn't a great concern due to a tight calendar without factoring lingering impact of COVID.

They probably will. Harthill might fancy the WoS instead of the EoS though. They know they're going to be in the bottom tier of whichever league they join and probably hope it will be regionalised at that level. In the West that would mean a Greater Glasgow area league. In the East it would likely be a South Division with trips to the Borders.

A Midland League idea suggested by some Junior reps on podcasts involves  Fife and Perthshire teams in that league. Instead of streamlining or building a pyramid you're basically ripping it up with no obvious benefit. You've got to get those clubs already in the pyramid to agree to that disruption and other leagues agree to adding a league to the playoff. It's not likely to gain enough support.

Tayside really is a case of apply to the EoSFL or become a feeder to the Highland League in some way.

Didn't mean to  imply that I was missing Highland League from national non league cup. Absolutely get them on board as well.

[LongTimeLurker]

23 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

1/ Would a national cup for all teams below tier 4 to replace SJC and SCC not be a good idea? ...

Definitely, in my opinion. Think an all-inclusive national nonleague cup will probably happen eventually but it's going to take time for some people to get junior vs senior tribalism out of their system and the HL probably needs to lose another club in numbers terms before it would fit into their fixture list.

[parsforlife]

A true non-league cup will be a hard challenge, one worth pursuing definitely,  but that it’s not been achieved in all this time does show the difficulty, too many bodies of differing opinions.   The junior cup was never really national,  it was effectively east and west region clubs enduring long journeys to defeat Aberdeenshire sides in the early rounds and then getting on with playing each other.  And that’s without adding in the huge regions of the county that didn’t play in it.

I don’t know where the space for it will come without a sponsor or the SFA chucking money at it for 4/5 years to get it properly established. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by parsforlife

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

Didn't mean to  imply that I was missing Highland League from national non league cup. Absolutely get them on board as well.

That's what other people suggest and why it's not a pressing concern. That's why it needs to be supported either by the SFA or by a sponsor. The old Junior Cup model of guarantees based on the gate isn't going to attract the Highland into it and the SCC is already re-evaluating how the operate.

There's 60 non-league pyramid teams that already compete in a Scottish Cup with Golspie & Banks O'Dee that sit outside. That's a number that's growing. Which is why no one running things cares that much. As while the Junior Cup finals are great. That's one game out a 100+ to get there

[Deanburn Dave]

The sensible things to happen next would be that all West Lothian clubs join the EoS, the various tribute acts go back to being amateur

Agree with the first part re the West Lothian clubs. Don't accept that Bo'ness United Junior FC are a "tribute act". You can make an argument for them requiring a name change to get into the EoS but they are an ambitious club who aspire to move up to a higher level.

[LongTimeLurker]

I'd be wary over what having a second club in Bo'ness does to the BUs long term, but obviously if the people involved are determined to do it and the EoS clubs vote them in then that's what is going to happen.

Edited January 26, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[John S]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I'd wary over what having a second club in Bo'ness does to the BUs long term, but obviously if the people involved are determined to do it and the EoS clubs vote them in then that's what is going to happen.

BU Juniors stated they would not be in direct competition with the BUs. Saw themselves as playing at a lower level with the potential to have a feeder role to the Senior club. As you say makes no sense to have two clubs in Bo'ness in the Senior ranks as competitors. Time will tell and future of East Region Junior  League will be significant.

[Burnieman]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's what other people suggest and why it's not a pressing concern. That's why it needs to be supported either by the SFA or by a sponsor. The old Junior Cup model of guarantees based on the gate isn't going to attract the Highland into it and the SCC is already re-evaluating how the operate.

There's 60 non-league pyramid teams that already compete in a Scottish Cup with Golspie & Banks O'Dee that sit outside. That's a number that's growing. Which is why no one running things cares that much. As while the Junior Cup finals are great. That's one game out a 100+ to get there

I can't see it happening anytime soon.  As you say, more and more clubs (particularly in the West) will be going for Licencing and therefore Scottish Cup / SFA membership which provides the finance that the Junior Cup never did unless you reached the semi-final stage.  For many clubs it cost money.

The South Challenge Cup fills the void without the trips north of Dundee, and I know some within the game want to try and develop it further with potentially finals at Hampden now that the SFA own it. Perhaps it could develop to encompass the HL as well into a national comp, but I can't see it happening anytime soon. It seems the HL wouldn't be much interested as things stand, it would probably need the carrot of participation money.

Can you imagine the Wick v Musselburgh scenario in the Scottish Cup this season also happening in a revamped national non-league comp, a few postponements leading to a trip north midweek to play Rothes or Lossiemouth or Brora from darkest Ayrshire (or vice versa) to fulfil the fixture, with no prizemoney at stake.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Burnieman