New clubs in the East of Scotland

[parsforlife]

There’s enough debate over wether to go with 2 regions at tier 8 or keep it EoS wide and go with a third division.  3 regions is just not on the table.  

[Blue]

From what I have heard this week Whitburn and Pumpherson are looking to move with Livingston United to EoS. Armadale are looking for other options possibly West

[Ginaro]

3 hours ago, zenon said:

Here is how I would propose a possible Second Division regional system using EOS Conference current standings, Tayport and the rest of the West Lothian juniors bar WOS interested Harthill joining and Cupar Hearts being rumoured.

Aside from the fact that 9-10 team leagues are a stupid idea when you can have 14/15 instead, I like how you've put Easthouses and Ormiston in the North league.

[Sergeant Wilson]

43 minutes ago, Blue said:

From what I have heard this week Whitburn and Pumpherson are looking to move with Livingston United to EoS. Armadale are looking for other options possibly West

Are Armadale thinking West to avoid meeting the clubs who "deserted" over the past couple of years?

[FairWeatherFan]

8 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Are Armadale thinking West to avoid meeting the clubs who "deserted" over the past couple of years?

Going West means they don't have to become that what they've hated, a traitor to the grade.

[Cyclizine]

With the precedent set by the West Region clubs, would the remaining West Lothian Juniors be able to retain their SJFA membership if they departed to the EoSFL? Or would the continuation of the ERJFA stop this?

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

With the precedent set by the West Region clubs, would the remaining West Lothian Juniors be able to retain their SJFA membership if they departed to the EoSFL? Or would the continuation of the ERJFA stop this?

From what was said at the time the rule change put in place by the SJFA was only for those clubs going to the WoSFL. Of course there's been a change in management at the SJFA since then so they might be more open to membership from non-Junior leagues.

The problem though is that the EoSFL have their own set of competitions to arrange their fixture list. Even if a club could retain membership to the SJFA, they might not be able to find the space for Junior Cup games in their calendar of commitments.

[Cyclizine]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

From what was said at the time the rule change put in place by the SJFA was only for those clubs going to the WoSFL. Of course there's been a change in management at the SJFA since then so they might be more open to membership from non-Junior leagues.

The problem though is that the EoSFL have their own set of competitions to arrange their fixture list. Even if a club could retain membership to the SJFA, they might not be able to find the space for Junior Cup games in their calendar of commitments.

It might offer a bit of a sop to the staunch east juniors if they were allowed to retain membership after a move "senior". Absolutely agree that the SJC would not be a priority for fixture scheduling, given the South Challenge Cup would be the primary non-league competition.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Cyclizine

[LongTimeLurker]

12 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Are Armadale thinking West to avoid meeting the clubs who "deserted" over the past couple of years?

There has been at least one interview involving an officeholder from Armadale that made it sound like there was severe personal animosities over what happened in the season leading up to when the three tier 6 EoS conferences were set up, because several clubs left despite assuring others like Armadale in meetings that they wouldn't.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There has been at least one interview involving an officeholder from Armadale that made it sound like there was severe personal animosities over what happened in the season leading up to when the three tier 6 EoS conferences were set up, because several clubs left despite assuring others like Armadale in meetings that they wouldn't.

I remember that but wondered if it was still an issue that was going to have them change the traditional boundary. I had a look and there'll always be a perceived line, but the West Lothian teams all look a reasonable fit in the west.

I haven't looked at how that would make the EoS look when the rest of the juniors join.

[LongTimeLurker]

Fauldhouse teams played in Lanarkshire junior leagues back in the day, so it wouldn't be unprecedented. Forth have never seemed to be flavour of the month in west circles for travel related reasons though, so may not be a given that a majority of WoS clubs would go along with this. Don't think there are any rigid rules on this, which is why nobody bats an eyelid over Kello Rovers being in South of Scotland territory, for example. Think West Lothian clubs need to think very carefully about what happens if they miss the EoS deadline and then get knocked back by the WoS. Could mean lots of trips to Tayside next season.

[PastyMan]

Fauldhouse have no plans to join the EoS and expect to carry on in their joint suicide pact with the rest of the West Lothian juniors.

[LongTimeLurker]

That would be lunatic if clubs like Whitburn and Pumpherston leave and not very clever even if they don't. There's a part of Lanarkshire that juts into West Lothian between Blackridge and Harthill, so Armadale is closer to Lanarkshire than many people probably realise, although it's not like the Harthill scenario where Harthill is actually in Lanarkshire but Harthill Royal's ground is just over the boundary in West Lothian:

For GordonS's benefit, use of this map does not mean I accept that Bo'ness United should no longer be viewed as a West Lothian club.

[LongTimeLurker]

17 hours ago, Marten said:

...In terms of Blairgowrie & Coupar Angus, there is no chance they'd go elsewhere without the Tayside clubs...

Is  that something you know for a fact having spoken to people at these clubs or are you presenting your personal opinion of what should happen as a self-evident fait accompli? Given how lopsided the single table Tayside format is there are obvious reasons why individual clubs from there might want to explore other options at this point as Luncarty did last season and may not accept that a truncated single table Tayside sort of setup is their medium to long term future. Whether they would/should actually get accepted into the EoS and whether the Club 42 boundary makes sense or not are separate issues from what individual clubs may decide to try to do between now and March 31st. patriot1 has told us repeatedly that there is nothing stopping Tayside clubs putting in an application.

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

With the precedent set by the West Region clubs, would the remaining West Lothian Juniors be able to retain their SJFA membership if they departed to the EoSFL? Or would the continuation of the ERJFA stop this?

The Continuity ERSJFA.

Dissidents.

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That would be lunatic if clubs like Whitburn and Pumpherston leave and not very clever even if they don't. There's a part of Lanarkshire that juts into West Lothian between Blackridge and Harthill, so Armadale is closer to Lanarkshire than many people probably realise, although it's not like the Harthill scenario where Harthill is actually in Lanarkshire but Harthill Royal's ground is just over the boundary in West Lothian:

For GordonS's benefit, use of this map does not mean I accept that Bo'ness United should no longer be viewed as a West Lothian club.

 I think you mean "Linlithgowshire".

I think it's healthy to take a pragmatic approach to the clubs that are close to boundaries - Harthill and Fauldhouse are pretty much in the same boat as Luncarty.

FWIW there's a good-sized chunk of Harthill that's in West Lothian, the Greenrigg estate and some new streets on the south side of the main street. It's still the badlands though.

[Burnieman]

Fauldhouse have no plans to join the EoS and expect to carry on in their joint suicide pact with the rest of the West Lothian juniors.

Not what I'm hearing!

[Marten]

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Is  that something you know for a fact having spoken to people at these clubs or are you presenting your personal opinion of what should happen as a self-evident fait accompli? Given how lopsided the single table Tayside format is there are obvious reasons why individual clubs from there might want to explore other options at this point as Luncarty did last season and may not accept that a truncated single table Tayside sort of setup is their medium to long term future. Whether they would/should actually get accepted into the EoS and whether the Club 42 boundary makes sense or not are separate issues from what individual clubs may decide to try to do between now and March 31st. patriot1 has told us repeatedly that there is nothing stopping Tayside clubs putting in an application.

This is based to conversations I've had with people from both clubs and other Tayside based "junior men". The idea I'm getting is that neither are too bothered with the label put on them ("junior" or "senior"), but they just want to play clubs from Tayside (and other areas not too far away). They're not the richest clubs, so they don't fancy trips to the Borders simply from a financial perspective.

[Marten]

3 hours ago, GordonS said:

The Continuity ERSJFA.

Dissidents.

 I think you mean "Linlithgowshire".

I think it's healthy to take a pragmatic approach to the clubs that are close to boundaries - Harthill and Fauldhouse are pretty much in the same boat as Luncarty.

FWIW there's a good-sized chunk of Harthill that's in West Lothian, the Greenrigg estate and some new streets on the south side of the main street. It's still the badlands though.

Local authority boundaries can change and often don't make any sense. Another good example of that is around Dundee, Invergowrie is Perth & Kinross. Yet it pretty much forms a continuous built-up area with Dundee (Lochee). From where I live, Invergowrie is a short walk. I prefer to get the train from Invergowrie whenever I'm heading towards Glasgow as I can just walk to the station rather than having to get on a bus to Dundee station. Locals from Invergowrie do their shopping generally in Dundee and use some local services around where I live. The local authority boundary doesn't make that much sense. Because of that, their local amateur club play Midlands AFA against clubs from Dundee/Angus rather than Perthshire AFA. If they would decide to make the step up to junior/senior football (I highly doubt they would, but as an example), there is no doubt they'd go for whatever league the clubs from Dundee are in, rather than joining the Perth clubs in the EOS.

Oddities like that are all over. A bit of flexibility around local authority boundaries is only fair enough imo.

[GordonS]

20 minutes ago, Marten said:

Local authority boundaries can change and often don't make any sense. Another good example of that is around Dundee, Invergowrie is Perth & Kinross. Yet it pretty much forms a continuous built-up area with Dundee (Lochee). From where I live, Invergowrie is a short walk. I prefer to get the train from Invergowrie whenever I'm heading towards Glasgow as I can just walk to the station rather than having to get on a bus to Dundee station. Locals from Invergowrie do their shopping generally in Dundee and use some local services around where I live. The local authority boundary doesn't make that much sense. Because of that, their local amateur club play Midlands AFA against clubs from Dundee/Angus rather than Perthshire AFA. If they would decide to make the step up to junior/senior football (I highly doubt they would, but as an example), there is no doubt they'd go for whatever league the clubs from Dundee are in, rather than joining the Perth clubs in the EOS.

Oddities like that are all over. A bit of flexibility around local authority boundaries is only fair enough imo.

Scotland's boundaries haven't changed since 1995, and most of the lines go back a lot further than that, many to medieval times.

While all other boundaries are set by the various independent Boundary Commissions, the shape of local authorities is controlled by the government - the Scottish Government since 1999, and before that the UK government. In the 90s the Tories re-wrote the map of local authorities in Scotland to break up the power of Strathclyde Region, a perennial Labour council covering 2.5 million people, and to create wee diddy councils they could conceivably control themselves like East Renfrewshire and East Dunbartonshire (a local authority without a single senior or junior football side, though Rob Roy should come home some day).

For Glasgow and Dundee this meant them being deliberately hobbled, and having some of their wealthiest, high rates-paying suburbs hived off into neighbouring local authorities. Glasgow's boundaries are a joke, wriggling in to keep the good people of places like Clarkston, Muirend, Lenzie and Bearsden out, and wriggling out to keep all of Drumchapel, Possil, Easterhouse, Darnley and Castlemilk in. I don't know Dundee as well but I think the same happened there with Invergowrie, Monifieth and Birkhill. The line down N and S Balmossie Street between Dundee and Angus is a joke.

/rant

Coming back to the point, the border between West Lothian is an ancient one, but who cares. 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

I've always thought any boundaries should be based around the local council authorities but with some kinda of wriggle room (5 miles say?) for potential exceptions like Tayport and the like. I think that might be because there's 32 council areas and the OCD part of me think that's such a great number for dividing a pyramid up by