New clubs in the East of Scotland

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, Che Dail said:

A = Association (of clubs) who decide things

True but the clubs delegate a lot of decision making power to the SFA Board.

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Maybe not the best to use something that says bye bye Jeanfield and Kinnoull.

It doesn't say bye bye. Its because they don't cover the whole of Perthshire as I said it says clearly throughout these areas. It isn't throughout perthshire

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

It doesn't say bye bye. Its because they don't cover the whole of Perthshire as I said it says clearly throughout these areas. It isn't throughout perthshire

It doesn't say anything about Perthshire full stop.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

What about:

Highland / Central / Lowland East / Lowland West

From SPFL 2 down...

Would be a bit population heavy in favour of the lowlands but, if it were to go 4 ways, I would keep the current HL/LL boundaries (or close to it) and have LLWest/LLEast and, above that, HLNorth and HLEast.

What looks more likely, the way it's panning out, would be a six way split below HL/LL. Below LL you have EoSFL, SoSFL and WRJFA and below HL NCL, NRJFA and ERJFA (featuring clubs North of the Tay). Seems a bit unwieldy

[Ray Patterson]

Something that hasn't been mentioned AFAIK is that the LL could expand to 18 or perhaps 20 or even 22 clubs, especially since every club will have Floodlights from next season. So there's definitely scope for the sides to do that - as they do at a similar level down south.

It would also go a long way to stopping a log jam at the top of tier 6.

[Che Dail]

14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

True but the clubs delegate a lot of decision making power to the SFA Board.

...who in this instance take advice and comment from the regional associations / league reps (EoS, SoS, LL) having have consulted their member clubs - and the feedback on certain aspects is fairly clear and unanimous.

Basically, it is not an 'authority'

Edited January 11, 2020 by Che Dail

[AlanCamelonfan]

13 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It doesn't say anything about Perthshire full stop.

The fa premier league doesnt say english and has had Welsh clubs in it. What's your point 

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

The fa premier league doesnt say english and has had Welsh clubs in it. What's your point 

Because its a traditional 'Tayside' area and the EOS are okay with the creation of a 'Tayside' league. So when it comes to redrawing boundaries the EoS hasn't claimed the territory where existing members are located.

[LongTimeLurker]

18 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

...who in this instance take advice and comment from the regional associations / league reps (EoS, SoS, LL) having have consulted their member clubs - and the feedback on certain aspects is fairly clear and unanimous.

Basically, it is not an 'authority'

My original point was more that if there is ever a question on how rules are being applied that definitely falls very much under the SFA as that's where the appeal would go. Beyond that the PWG is a committee set up by the SFA Board and it remains to be seen to what extent power devolved is power retained. It definitely looks to me like the EoS hold a veto on what happens next given the wording on who needs to sign off on changes to the LL playoff rule, but there are people who have argued things would be otherwise if the PWG reaches an impasse. They've been wrong so far.

Edited January 11, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Guest]

My original point was more that if there is ever a question on how rules are being applied that definitely falls very much under the SFA as that's where the appeal would go. Beyond that the PWG is a committee set up by the SFA Board and it remains to be seen to what extent power devolved is power retained. It definitely looks to me like the EoS hold a veto on what happens next given the wording on who needs to sign off on changes to the LL playoff rule, but there are people who have argued things would be otherwise if the PWG reaches an impasse. They've been wrong so far.

The sfa don't have ultimate power over this and for good reason. It's called a fair and transparent process that ensures the decision lies with those it directly affects. It means that the sfa can't simply railroad something into practice just because they want to, or they have been mislead, or they want to keep a chum happy.

The sfa haven't been able to put anything into practice because the LL, EOS and HL haven't agreed to it, that's the process that the sfa put in place on the pyramid structures inception.

[FairWeatherFan]

I skimmed listened the two most recent Voice of the Junior podcasts. Guests included the owner and manager of Cumbernauld United (2nd in the West Championship likely candidate to be promoted to the West Premiership) and Tommy Sloan the manager of Auchinleck Talbot.

Going by some of the fears they have over the pyramid, it seems a good portion of the Region might well still be uninformed. Pyramid entry seems to be more the inevitable outcome rather than a desired one. They all seem open to it and theory and those that will attend on Thursday are willing to listen. I'm just worried that there won't be people promoting the pyramid to change the doubters.

When Lowland League West gets brought up and delaying things to 2021-22 I wouldn't be shocked if there's enough turned heads. Even though that would break up the region even more than Tier 6 entry would. They would see it as another year of the status quo and keeping doing what they've always done.

Hopefully there's enough informed opinions that will speak up on Thursday, or decide to form a breakaway to avoid being stalled another year.

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Would be a bit population heavy in favour of the lowlands but, if it were to go 4 ways, I would keep the current HL/LL boundaries (or close to it) and have LLWest/LLEast and, above that, HLNorth and HLEast.

What looks more likely, the way it's panning out, would be a six way split below HL/LL. Below LL you have EoSFL, SoSFL and WRJFA and below HL NCL, NRJFA and ERJFA (featuring clubs North of the Tay). Seems a bit unwieldy

"Unwieldy" ?

A nationwide pyramid would need to recognise Scotland's geographical regions. Unless of course, there is an intention to exclude small/remote clubs from playing in the pyramid in future. For example : -            *

Wigtown & Bladnoch v Glasgow Perthshire

Thurso v Brechin Vics, 

Fraserburgh United v Halkirk United   

Six separate regions broadly recognises the current distribution  of non-league clubs.  How long would any of the smaller clubs survive, if they had to travel vast distances to play league matches week in/week out ?, Travel costs  would increase, and many players (and club officials) wouldn't be prepared to entertain it. 

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

37 minutes ago, Robert James said:

"Unwieldy" ?

 

Yeah. Unwieldy. For promotion and relegation. The 1-2-4-8 method is far more streamlined. 

[Guest]

I skimmed listened the two most recent Voice of the Junior podcasts. Guests included the owner and manager of Cumbernauld United (2nd in the West Championship likely candidate to be promoted to the West Premiership) and Tommy Sloan the manager of Auchinleck Talbot.
Going by some of the fears they have over the pyramid, it seems a good portion of the Region might well still be uninformed. Pyramid entry seems to be more the inevitable outcome rather than a desired one. They all seem open to it and theory and those that will attend on Thursday are willing to listen. I'm just worried that there won't be people promoting the pyramid to change the doubters.
When Lowland League West gets brought up and delaying things to 2021-22 I wouldn't be shocked if there's enough turned heads. Even though that would break up the region even more than Tier 6 entry would. They would see it as another year of the status quo and keeping doing what they've always done.
Hopefully there's enough informed opinions that will speak up on Thursday, or decide to form a breakaway to avoid being stalled another year.

Is LL West even an option at this stage? I do t remember seeing it as part of the 4 on the table.

I wouldn't think the LL or the current eos Premier clubs would be for a LL East and West at this stage. Maybe when things progress a little but surely not right away?

[FairWeatherFan]

7 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Is LL West even an option at this stage? I do t remember seeing it as part of the 4 on the table.

I wouldn't think the LL or the current eos Premier clubs would be for a LL East and West at this stage. Maybe when things progress a little but surely not right away?

As far as i'm aware the 4 options for discussion within the leagues were:

1. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA remain out of Pyramid.

2. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA join at tier 7 and feed into EoS Premier.

3. Same proposal as a year ago, West and East in at tier 6 next season.

4. LL splits into West and East of 12-16 clubs each for 2021-22, WRJFA and SoS feed into West, ERJFA and EoS feed into East.

I've seen either the likes of yourself, or others that will have seen the documents refer to these as Options W,X,Y and Z.

Option 4 on that list is what I called Lowland League West.

I'm guessing the majority opionion of the East Region will be for option 3 or 4 from that list. The West option 4 since there's always been a low opinion of the Lowland League.

Which will hopefully see moves by some of the clubs for a WoSFL so they don't get shut out for 2020-21.

[Guest]

As far as i'm aware the 4 options for discussion within the leagues were:
1. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA remain out of Pyramid.
2. WRJFA in for next season, ERJFA join at tier 7 and feed into EoS Premier.
3. Same proposal as a year ago, West and East in at tier 6 next season.
4. LL splits into West and East of 12-16 clubs each for 2021-22, WRJFA and SoS feed into West, ERJFA and EoS feed into East.
I've seen either the likes of yourself, or others that will have seen the documents refer to these as Options W,X,Y and Z.
Option 4 on that list is what I called Lowland League West.
I'm guessing the majority opionion of the East Region will be for option 3 or 4 from that list. The West option 4 since there's always been a low opinion of the Lowland League.
Which will hopefully see moves by some of the clubs for a WoSFL so they don't get shut out for 2020-21.

The likes of myself, impressive. [emoji1787]

I wouldn't suggest a LL East and West over time is necessarily an idea I'd say no to, but it's a the longer term idea. I'd rather see that when clubs reach the licensing standards (for example when the west are in the pyramid and clubs have had a couple of years to get through the licensing process so you have enough teams to start the LL West up).

In conjunction with this, the spfl would have to consider opening up more promotion and relegation spots. One spot for then a HL, LL West and LL East simply creates more of a bottleneck than there is already. This is why I'd say a LL East and LL West over time. It allows for more licensed teams both East and West to account for increases and decreases in numbers in each league to account for increased promotion to the spfl.

I'd say right now the most straight forward and sensible plan is to have the West in as is, East either joins the eos at its lowest tier or stays outwith the pyramid until they wish to join the eos. This allows the west to progress and east clubs to decide for themselves if they wish to join the pyramid or not. The fact that the sjfa have been happy to forget the North means they have pretty much set the precedent for forgetting the 'all in together' approach.

This means nothing fundamentally changes other than promotion to the LL, which again means increases in relegation and promotion so there isn't the same bottleneck we are trying to avoid into the spfl. If the LL deny this then it would be hard for them to argue having an increase into the spfl as they would be accused of denying the very thing they are seeking for themselves.

It's all very interesting stuff yet to be negotiated and discussed (crazy that we are almost 2 years further down the line) but the LL guys are pretty rational and I think they would be happy to increase their spots, but only if the wrsjfa come in and the ersjfa join the eos. Having the ersjfa as a standalone creates a 4th top league at tier 6, making an even greater bottleneck yet again.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

The likes of myself, impressive.

I wouldn't suggest a LL East and West over time is necessarily an idea I'd say no to, but it's a the longer term idea. I'd rather see that when clubs reach the licensing standards (for example when the west are in the pyramid and clubs have had a couple of years to get through the licensing process so you have enough teams to start the LL West up).

In conjunction with this, the spfl would have to consider opening up more promotion and relegation spots. One spot for then a HL, LL West and LL East simply creates more of a bottleneck than there is already. This is why I'd say a LL East and LL West over time. It allows for more licensed teams both East and West to account for increases and decreases in numbers in each league to account for increased promotion to the spfl.

I'd say right now the most straight forward and sensible plan is to have the West in as is, East either joins the eos at its lowest tier or stays outwith the pyramid until they wish to join the eos. This allows the west to progress and east clubs to decide for themselves if they wish to join the pyramid or not. The fact that the sjfa have been happy to forget the North means they have pretty much set the precedent for forgetting the 'all in together' approach.

This means nothing fundamentally changes other than promotion to the LL, which again means increases in relegation and promotion so there isn't the same bottleneck we are trying to avoid into the spfl. If the LL deny this then it would be hard for them to argue having an increase into the spfl as they would be accused of denying the very thing they are seeking for themselves.

It's all very interesting stuff yet to be negotiated and discussed (crazy that we are almost 2 years further down the line) but the LL guys are pretty rational and I think they would be happy to increase their spots, but only if the wrsjfa come in and the ersjfa join the eos. Having the ersjfa as a standalone creates a 4th top league at tier 6, making an even greater bottleneck yet again.

 

I'm not thinking about most sensible or long term.

I'm thinking what the West Region are actually going to come out with on Thursday. It seems to me there are enough people that fear losing cups, losing money, ticket prices increased and promotion to what they see as an inferior league.

All because they're uninformed years into this and there might not be anyone there that speaks up for joining at tier 6.

[FairWeatherFan]

In the questionnaire from a couple of years ago it asked whether clubs would prefer Tier 5 or Tier 6 entry into the pyramid. These were the responses from the 63 clubs that are in the West Region.

Option A (Tier 6 entry)

1. Arthurlie
2. Cambuslang Rangers
3. Forth Wanderers
4. Gartcairn Juniors
5. Glenafton Athletic
6. Hurlford United
7. Johnstone Burgh
8. Kilbirnie Ladeside
9. Kilwinning Rangers
10. Largs Thistle
11. Maryhill
12. Neilston Juniors
13. Rossvale
14. Rutherglen Glencairn
15. Shettleston
16. Shotts Bon Accord
17. Vale of Clyde
18. Yoker Athletic 

Option B (Tier 5 entry)

1. Annbank United
2. Ardeer Thistle
3. Ashfield
4. Auchinleck Talbot
5. Beith Juniors
6. Bellshill Athletic
7. Blantyre Victoria
8. Carluke Rovers
9. Clydebank
10. Craigmark Burntonians
11. Cumbernauld United
12. Cumnock Juniors
13. Dalry Thistle
14. Darvel
15. East Kilbride Thistle
16. Greenock Juniors
17. Irvine Victoria
18. Kello Rovers
19. Kilsyth Rangers
20. Larkhall Thistle
21. Lesmahagow
22. Lugar Boswell Thistle
23. Maybole
24. Newmains United
25. Petershill
26. Pollok
27. Port Glasgow
28. St Anthony's
29. St Roch's
30. Troon
31. Whitletts Victoria
32. Wishaw

N/A

1. Irvine Meadow XI
2. Kirkintilloch Rob Roy
3. Lanark United
4. Thorniewood United
5. Vale of Leven

Blank

1. Ardrossan Winton Rovers
2. Benburb
3. Glasgow Perthshire
4. Muirkirk
5. Renfrew
6. Royal Albert
7. Saltcoats Victoria

Unviewable on the Screenshots

1. Girvan

Edited January 12, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[LongTimeLurker]

Are the SJFA likely to be keen on the LL west and LL east concept when that means they would quickly lose most of the clubs that can usually be expected to be appearing in the junior cup quarter finals? What the SJFA probably would have wanted was having their own superduperleague in at tier 5, but the horse has long since bolted on that scenario. Suspect it's the LL that are pushing that option and it's part of the LL2 idea that sometimes gets mentioned. The reason they would be keen on this is that it provides more of the existing LL clubs (Spartans would be a prime example) with a much better shot at playing in tier 5 over the long term.

Edited January 12, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Are the SJFA likely to be keen on the LL west and LL east concept when that means they would quickly lose most of the clubs that can usually be expected to be appearing in the junior cup quarter finals? What the SJFA probably would have wanted was having their own superduperleague in at tier 5, but the horse has long since bolted on that scenario. Suspect it's the LL that are pushing that option and it's part of the LL2 idea that sometimes gets mentioned. The reason they would be keen on this is that it provides more of the existing LL clubs (Spartans would be a prime example) with a much better shot at playing in tier 5 over the long term.

• Who's going to be there to tell them its the Lowland League running it?
• Who's there to tell them it would be by application with priority given to those with licencing and not just the West Premiership getting slotted in?
• Who's going to be there to say that it would mean losing the Junior Cup?
• Who's going to be there to explain all the problems of the East and that the West going in on its own at Tier 6 has the best chance of passing the PWG?
• Anyone likely to mention that the West and East in at Tier 6 has already been voted down?

Nobody. Certainly no representatives from the LL, EoS or SFA as far as i'm aware. Not that the SFA would matter much considering how they've handled things.