New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Burnieclub78]

10 minutes ago, Marten said:

Do you already have someone for figures at Lochee United? I go to a fair amount of games (home & some away) so I could help if needed?

I get figures for some games but always happy to get headcounts. All help is welcome.  

[FairWeatherFan]

Think this is right as well. The EoS have managed their fixture list by creating groups of 4 local rivals so that their games fall into international weekends, New year's/festive period to try and maximize support. 

If that already happens, do teams have more than 3 "derby rivals' for there to be a benefit?

Would a team that's 20 miles away bring twice as many fans as 40 miles away? Don't see it happening to justify limiting one of the joys of football like winning promotion.

[Che Dail]

2 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Ultimately creates the same issues as the old ESJFA structure that worked better with 2 region wide divisions and 2 feeders.

If we went with that it would more be

EoS first
Sauchie, Blackburn, Whitehill, inverkeithing, Glenrothes, Dunipace,Herriot watt, LTHV, Haddington, Preston, Dalkeith, Pumpherston,Armadale, Fauldhouse, Whitburn, St. Andrews

North
Tayport, kinnoull, Thornton , Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth , Newburgh, Kilkcaldy, Lochgelly, luncarty, Oakley, Burntisland, lochore, Stirling uni, syngenta , Bathgate

South
Edinburgh United , Coldstream, Peebles, ormiston, Hawick, easthouses, arniston, craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk, Kelso, Duns, Harthill, stoneyburn, west Calder tweedmouth.

Few placeholder sides put in with the returning border sides/luncarty, you also have the CIC’s as possibilities as well as the likes of AM soccer, Glenrothes strollers etc. You can run the divisions smaller if nobody turned up or possibly squeeze some/all divisions up to 18 if a all/most non-EoS/ESJFA clubs that have been rumoured before were to enter. Ultimately tho if the EoS was big enough to go 16-16-(16/16) then tie ups to amateur leagues would need put in place.

Yes this is good - but the obvious issue with the clubs you've introduced into the EoS 1st would be that it does mean some clubs coming in at a higher tier than established EoS clubs which wouldn't be universally popular...  it would all even out in a few years though.  

[parsforlife]

8 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Yes this is good - but the obvious issue with the clubs you've introduced into the EoS 1st would be that it does mean some clubs coming in at a higher tier than established EoS clubs which wouldn't be universally popular...  it would all even out in a few years though.  

It should be noted i just treated the ESJFA super as if it was a 3rd conference for demonstration purposes only, not as a suggestion. 

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Agreed.  If Blackburn fell to that 3 region level, we'd barely travel outside West Lothian which is just awful.  The impact on crowds would be negligible as well, local football = bigger crowds is largely a myth.

A set-up mirroring the ERJFA before clubs left would be the best long term solution  Premier (16) - First (16) - then North and South, with Fife placed North, Borders placed South, then everyone else split between the two.

It's not solely about increasing crowds - outwith the EoS Premier not many clubs really carry much of an away support anyway.  Only 55 at Kennoway v Fauldhouse in the East 'Super' the other week, they used to have a decent following and compare it with Bathgate v Whitburn for example.

It is also about time and cost for players and their clubs - not everybody wants to travel to play football, and I think this is one reason why guys choose to play ams instead of EoS and it shouldn't be like that.  

Another poster has shown that a premier with North & South below it could work - think that supersedes my effort!

[Anychance]

5 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Hypothetical scenario just now but it is worthwhile seeing what the EoS Division 2 tier could look like if split regionally:

West (15): Sauchie, Blackburn, Stirling Uni, Heriot Watt Uni(?), Dunipace, Fauldhouse, Bathgate, Whitburn, Livingston, Pumpherston, Armadale, Harthill, Stoneyburn, Syngenta, West Calder

Central (16): Inverkeithing, Glenrothes, St Andrews, Kinnoull, Oakley, Burntisland, Tayport, Luncarty(?), Thornton, Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth, Newburgh, Kirkcaldy & Dysart, Lochgelly

South (16): Whitehill, Edinburgh United, Dalkeith, Preston, Coldstream, Haddington, Peebles, Ormiston, Hawick, Tweedmouth, Easthouses, Arniston, Craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk(?), Kelso(?)

This is a logical solution and should be attractive to most clubs at this level: significantly less travel, more derbies, focus on community and SFA Licencing. 

You effectively have a 'SuperLeague' which is the LL, a 'Premier' and then the local teams below it.   

It could help encourage a revival of the likes of borders clubs such as Eyemouth / Selkirk / Kelso / Duns.  And for the West teams potentially dropping down (if it is Sauchie and Blackburn) you have a decent and interesting local league to compete in.

It would also allow a straightforward transition for ambitious ams clubs wanting to progress, or those having to drop down for whatever reason.

The north of Tay Junior clubs can fend for themselves and affiliate to the HL structure, which would get them going on the path towards club licensing and Scottish Cup entry. 

Need to get heads together to sort it out.

hate regional leagues if I wanted that I would stick to ammy leagues

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

It should be noted i just treated the ESJFA super as if it was a 3rd conference for demonstration purposes only, not as a suggestion. 

So for sayings sake (for illustration):

EoS first (14)
Sauchie, Blackburn, Whitehill, Inverkeithing, Glenrothes, Dunipace, Heriot Watt, LTHV, Haddington, Preston, Dalkeith, St. Andrews, Kinnoull, Oakley

Regional Leagues - 2 or 3 divisions:
North (10)
Burntisland, Thornton , Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth , Newburgh, Kirkcaldy, Lochgelly, Luncarty, Lochore 

West (11)
Stirling uni, Syngenta , Bathgate, Pumpherston, Armadale, Fauldhouse, Whitburn, Harthill, Stoneyburn, West Calder, Tweedmouth

South (11)
Edinburgh United, Peebles, Ormiston, Hawick, Easthouses, Arniston, Craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk, Kelso, Duns

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It's not solely about increasing crowds - outwith the EoS Premier not many clubs really carry much of an away support anyway.  Only 55 at Kennoway v Fauldhouse in the East 'Super' the other week, they used to have a decent following and compare it with Bathgate v Whitburn for example.

It is also about time and cost for players and their clubs - not everybody wants to travel to play football, and I think this is one reason why guys choose to play ams instead of EoS and it shouldn't be like that.  

Another poster has shown that a premier with North & South below it could work - think that supersedes my effort!

We need to do what is right for the club and league, not the player.  If a player doesn't fancy travelling they sign for a club that provides less of it.  Plenty of part-time players happy to travel up and down the country every week.

A North/South set-up at tier 8 similar to what existed in the ERJFA (minus Tayside) is probably a good way forward if and when numbers dictate a split at that level, you can then offer a couple of promotion spots to each league which will keep clubs happy.

 

 

[craigkillie]

6 minutes ago, Anychance said:

hate regional leagues if I wanted that I would stick to ammy leagues

The East of Scotland League is a regional league.

[Anychance]

the league is fine the way it is just the improvement of splitting the conferences into a 1st division and a 2nd division for me

regional leagues takes us backwards in my opinion in terms of competition

[Anychance]

east of Scotland incorporates a load of regions

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The East of Scotland League is a regional league.

 

[Fife Journeyman]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

So for sayings sake (for illustration):

EoS first (14)
Sauchie, Blackburn, Whitehill, Inverkeithing, Glenrothes, Dunipace, Heriot Watt, LTHV, Haddington, Preston, Dalkeith, St. Andrews, Kinnoull, Oakley

Regional Leagues - 2 or 3 divisions:
North (10)
Burntisland, Thornton , Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth , Newburgh, Kirkcaldy, Lochgelly, Luncarty, Lochore 

West (11)
Stirling uni, Syngenta , Bathgate, Pumpherston, Armadale, Fauldhouse, Whitburn, Harthill, Stoneyburn, West Calder, Tweedmouth

South (11)
Edinburgh United, Peebles, Ormiston, Hawick, Easthouses, Arniston, Craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk, Kelso, Duns

Amazing that this matches up with the old East Region  Juniors minus Tayside.  Superleague,Premier and regional divisions. There was nothing wrong with that set up in the Juniors but it was the way it was being administered was the issue, Now we are looking  at the same set up in a true pyramid  and it would work very well.

2 relegated from Premier, 2 up from first , playoff with third bottom and third top.

i wouldnt have 3 regions at Tier 8 but make it 2 leagues, winners promoted and runners up lay off.

 

[Marten]

If all south of Tay ERJFA clubs join the EOS (either one by one or via some kind of merger) there would be approx. 60 clubs. I think it would then make sense to have 16-16-14/14 with regionalised tier 8 leagues. Regionalisation shouldn't be lower than tier 8 but at that level it makes sense imo.

It would be a different case if all ERJFA clubs join (for which the Tay bridge boundary needs to change). Then there would be approx. 78 clubs and in that case I think a regionalised tier 7 would make sense as otherwise there could be some very long journeys at that level like Forfar to Peebles. Then something like 16-16/16-15/15 would make sense.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

We need to do what is right for the club and league, not the player.  If a player doesn't fancy travelling they sign for a club that provides less of it.  Plenty of part-time players happy to travel up and down the country every week.

A North/South set-up at tier 8 similar to what existed in the ERJFA (minus Tayside) is probably a good way forward if and when numbers dictate a split at that level, you can then offer a couple of promotion spots to each league which will keep clubs happy.

 

 

Ideally you want best v best (players) from the bottom of the pyramid all the way to the top, and the structure should facilitate that to ultimately improve standards.  

But for years we have had better players in the juniors than in in the 'pro' (part-time) leagues above, and better ams than in the 'semi-pro' Juniors and EoS and so on - this is a subjective view of course but could be backed up:  I remember Craigshill had 3 or 4  strong Junior and ex pros for a while - playing with their mates on soggy local public parks - debate on other threads at the moment about LEAFA ams stepping up - there is no doubt that plenty boys there could (and should?) be playing EoS but for their own reasons prefer not to. 

Agree with your 2nd para. 

 

[Burnie_man]

I drew these up a year or so ago based on an organised merger, so ignore position of clubs.

 TAYSIDE.pdf

NON TAYSIDE.pdf

Edited January 10, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

I TAYSIDE.pdfdrew these up a year or so ago, based on Tayside and no Tayside inclusion, and was based on a merger, so ignore the position of clubs.

NON TAYSIDE.pdf 100.76 kB · 0 downloads

EXACTLY. 

Stick with the 'Non-Tayside' table tho eh.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

EXACTLY. 

Stick with the 'Non-Tayside' table tho eh.

LOL, just providing options, however unlikely they may be..........

[Che Dail]

18 minutes ago, Anychance said:

east of Scotland incorporates a load of regions

 

It does - and at the bottom end it's a job persuading the likes of West Calder or Syngenta that they'll be better off in a league with Tweedmouth and Eyemouth.  Or ask Tayport to play in what is effectively an Edinburgh and Borders league if they got relegated - just not very appealing at all - needs split up in some way at the bottom end.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Che Dail

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It does - and at the bottom end it's a job persuading the likes of West Calder or Syngenta that they'll be better off in a league with Tweedmouth and Eyemouth.  Or ask Tayport to play in what is effectively an Edinburgh and Borders league if they got relegated - just not very appealing at all - needs split up in some way at the bottom end.

Most people I see that would like all the juniors in adopt the Premier-First-North/South set up that the old East Region had at the end.

As for syngenta specifically, maybe not the best example for a junior club with concerns. What with them already trying to get in to the EoS.

[LongTimeLurker]

49 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

We need to do what is right for the club and league, not the player.  If a player doesn't fancy travelling they sign for a club that provides less of it.  Plenty of part-time players happy to travel up and down the country every week...

You want the best players playing and if there is a trend that the players that belong at tier 7 in terms of ability prefer a more localised format then that should be taken into consideration.