New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Guest]

...so in other words no compromise even if it means no pyramid.

What compromise is required? There is already an East league. There is already a south league. There will be a West league. There is no compromise required.

Unless of course you are shooting from a viewpoint that you are looking for everyone else to change their structure so you can have what you want?

[AlanCamelonfan]

57 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

What compromise is required? There is already an East league. There is already a south league. There will be a West league. There is no compromise required.

Unless of course you are shooting from a viewpoint that you are looking for everyone else to change their structure so you can have what you want?

If west juniors don't come in intact we are only going to drip feed teams in as has happened in the east. I think Talbot seem to have no desire too. The only way I think they'd go to a new WOSFL is if the Scottish cup place only went to the Junior Cup winner and not league winners and say the two that went for licensing Cumnock and petershill went.

 

[stanley]

This new "compromise" talk is really boring.  The EoS already compromised massively by letting the East juniors join at the same level as existing EoS clubs last season culminating in a new EoS premier one year later consisting only of former junior clubs (plus Whitehill Welfare from the Lowland League).

The east juniors had their chance to move.  Even this season another two moved. 

There is no need for a compromise now and no reason for one.  There is no problem to be solved.  Any other east juniors wanting to move can do so and join the bottom tier just like Kinnoul and Glenrothes did.  It's a complete myth to suggest the EoS have done anything wrong throughout this process or are doing anything wrong by objecting to the remaining East juniors somehow joining at tier 6.

[Jason King]

Would all of the East Juniors meet the EoS ground criteria if they were to apply?

[Marshmallo]

On 31/08/2019 at 11:14, LongTimeLurker said:

Having a pyramid system by definition involves getting everybody on board. 

No it doesn't. It involves having more clubs at the bottom than the top and having a mechanism by which teams can move between tiers.

[Guest]

I think we just all need to brace ourselves for this being brought up every month or so by the same people. It is tedious to bat it back all the time but to be frank if they haven't understood it by now they may never understand it.

It makes me giggle inside that junior fans and some club people still believe they are the biggest and only show in town. This belief produces an approach whereby they believe that everyone else should marvel at their grandeur and provide them the platform to do what they want and have it all their own way.....they forget that non league football is not run by carlsberg nor do Burger King have anything to do with it.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 hours ago, stanley said:

This new "compromise" talk is really boring.  The EoS already compromised massively by letting the East juniors join at the same level as existing EoS clubs last season culminating in a new EoS premier one year later consisting only of former junior clubs (plus Whitehill Welfare from the Lowland League).

The east juniors had their chance to move.  Even this season another two moved. 

There is no need for a compromise now and no reason for one.  There is no problem to be solved.  Any other east juniors wanting to move can do so and join the bottom tier just like Kinnoul and Glenrothes did.  It's a complete myth to suggest the EoS have done anything wrong throughout this process or are doing anything wrong by objecting to the remaining East juniors somehow joining at tier 6.

Stanley I agree wholeheartedly that ERJSF should not come in at Tier 6 and they should come in under EOS League section, just divisions lower and every team would fight for promotion to get to the EOS then further.

For me, and this is not intended to be personal as I believe at times its hard for many on here to be totally objective,  the comment of "There is no need for a compromise now and no reason for one.  There is no problem to be solved. " is typical of a lot of attitude in many posts similar to this, We are in the power either able to veto or vote etc... on matters of teams, bodies lower down and we are looking after ourselves, it's typical of the reason why Scottish Football is such a low standard.  If it was factually proven that the ERJFA were to come along side EOS at Tier 6 and that it would factually improve Scottish Football, we all would still think the EOS are against the east juniors coming level would still say no. Obviously it wont and I think they should be in the same section as the EOS just lower divisions down.  I'm not just meaning East of Scotland fans or members, I'm talking about all bodies.  Get the same in the Junior post or others posts on here, posts where they are looking after themselves.

Yes I think the EOS haven't done anything wrong and I believe the bosses of the Juniors, East and the West are only organising as one whole jump so they can look after themselves and their own jobs.

I would love to see all the junior teams join the pyramid system, East, West North etc.. as the improvement would be no bounds and the knock-on effect of not just the football standard hopefully improving but the youth system changing and improving right throughout the Grassroots Youth Academies becoming closer with the local senior teams.

 

There's obviously issues that have to be addressed including what the East junior joining as a whole and if not a whole then any of them came join The EOS indpendalty

Edited September 1, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread
More Detail

[LongTimeLurker]

5 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There is a working pyramid in the Lowland League area....

The senior grade has restructured itself, but a pyramid league structure means having all clubs involved in a coherent structure and that means that the junior grade has to be integrated as well if a pyramid is going to be formed. As long as there is a need for PWG meetings the destination has yet to be reached where the pyramid is concerned. It's by no means clear that some of the people on here who claim to be pro-pyramid actually want that outcome.

 

[Marshmallo]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

The senior grade has restructured itself, but a pyramid league structure means having all clubs involved in a coherent structure and that means that the junior grade has to be integrated as well if a pyramid is going to be formed.

 

No it doesn't

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 It's by no means clear that some of the people on here who claim to be pro-pyramid actually want that outcome.

Dear me you still banging that tired old drum?  I think everyone on this thread would like to eventually see all semi-pro clubs involved in the Pyramid (yes, it already exists), that much is obvious, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of any league or club (and that includes forcing Junior clubs to move), and certainly not on the terms of any one organisation. It should, and will, be by consensus and agreement.

It's fairly simple to understand.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

No it doesn't

Having all clubs involved in a single coherent league structure that adds extra numbers of regional divisions as you go down through the tiers to form something that looks like a pyramid when it is all mapped out on a piece of paper is a simple enough concept that has already been implemented in just about every other UEFA member.

[Marshmallo]

How are you defining "all clubs"? 

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

Would all of the East Juniors meet the EoS ground criteria if they were to apply?

The only one I could think of that might struggle with this, will be Thornton Hibs. They play in a public park which isn't really enclosed. Then again, if Inverkeithing get away with their low fence around the pitch, something Thornton Hibs already have permission for if I'm correct, then this issue can be overcome as well.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

Would all of the East Juniors meet the EoS ground criteria if they were to apply?

Thornton Hibs would struggle, unless they properly enclose the ground. Sygenta were already knocked back, Linlithgow Rose CSC wouldn't get in at the sports centre (not even sure they're allowed to play Junior Cup ties there). Not sure about Rosyth.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The senior grade has restructured itself, but a pyramid league structure means having all clubs involved in a coherent structure and that means that the junior grade has to be integrated as well if a pyramid is going to be formed. As long as there is a need for PWG meetings the destination has yet to be reached where the pyramid is concerned. It's by no means clear that some of the people on here who claim to be pro-pyramid actually want that outcome.

 

There's an access point for those that want in the Lowland League catchment area. It doesn't need everyone to sign up to make it a pyramid structure.

The Junior Leagues are no different than the Northern League in England. They sat out for years and had to take what they could get when the eventually came in. The Junior leagues are actually getting a better deal in that the West Premiership, North Region Super League can still get Tier 6 status.

It's only in the East that there's some slight change. Even then the ERJFA North Super League could get Tier 6 status in the Highland League and the South of Tay teams can probably get Tier 7 by joining the EoS en masse to finally settle the EoSFL into a relatively fixed format..

 

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

How are you defining "all clubs"? 

What it says on the tin. It's not just the juniors that need to be integrated in to have a conventional pyramid system in tune with the UEFA mainstream. The amateurs need to be part of it as well.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

How are you defining "all clubs"? 

Clearly not the Amatuer League clubs. Even though that's where the likes of East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts, Burntisland Shipyard have all come from.

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What it says on the tin. It's not just the juniors that need to be integrated in to have a conventional pyramid system in tune with the UEFA mainstream. The amateurs need to be part of it as well.

No, as it will be ten years down the road, before the juniors and amateurs would be integrated into a fully fledged pyramid, if the recent and present situation, is any guide to the future.

 

However, the primary focus needs to be sorted out in the West for 2020/21. It is my view that the present stalemate, will drag on, unless the PWG gives decisive leadership, and addresses the following, very soon (we are now in September). It should :

(1) advise the SJFA that the West and East region juniors are separate issues, and will be dealt with as such with the East being a second priority, with a target date of season 2021/22

(2) advise the West Region juniors that IF all the outstanding issues about rules, etc, are resolved, these clubs will be  assimilated into the pyramid en bloc , assuming they wish to do so

(3) if the West juniors do not support this proposed 'en masse' pyramid assimilation, the SFA will propose and advertise (in January 2020) the formation of a West of Scotland senior League, at tier 6,  in time for 2020/21. A minimum of 8 clubs  (and ideally 16 clubs) will be required for the WoSL to be established

(4) if the establishment of a WoSL also fails, the West clubs will be left to decide individually whether they (i) apply to join the SoSL, or (ii) remain outwith the pyramid  and continuing in the juniors. If so, Scottish Cup rights for the 3 regional junior champions, will be withdrawn from next season, leaving only the Junior cup winners, being entitled to participate thereafter 

In return, the SFA will recommend to the Lowland League, that it moves to 2 promotion and 2 relegation places between tiers 5 & 6 for 2021/22, thereby facilitating greater movement within the pyramid, in recognition of the West clubs joining.

The SFA will also guarantee that there will be no further changes in the club licensing rules for 3 years, thereby preventing another floodlights debacle.

It is time to move on.

 

  

Edited September 2, 2019 by Robert James
typo error

[newcastle broon]

10 hours ago, Marten said:

The only one I could think of that might struggle with this, will be Thornton Hibs. They play in a public park which isn't really enclosed. Then again, if Inverkeithing get away with their low fence around the pitch, something Thornton Hibs already have permission for if I'm correct, then this issue can be overcome as well.

 

10 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Thornton Hibs would struggle, unless they properly enclose the ground. Sygenta were already knocked back, Linlithgow Rose CSC wouldn't get in at the sports centre (not even sure they're allowed to play Junior Cup ties there). Not sure about Rosyth.

Coldstream have a public path "within" their ground so it is doable. 

[gwd440]

13 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There's an access point for those that want in the Lowland League catchment area. It doesn't need everyone to sign up to make it a pyramid structure.

The Junior Leagues are no different than the Northern League in England. They sat out for years and had to take what they could get when the eventually came in. The Junior leagues are actually getting a better deal in that the West Premiership, North Region Super League can still get Tier 6 status.

It's only in the East that there's some slight change. Even then the ERJFA North Super League could get Tier 6 status in the Highland League and the South of Tay teams can probably get Tier 7 by joining the EoS en masse to finally settle the EoSFL into a relatively fixed format..

 

I agree with this.  The South Super is obviously not the equal of the current East of Scotland Premier, having lost the bulk of their best teams 2 years ago, and should slot in at Tier 7.  As a compromise/concession, I would offer them one or two places in the EOS Premier, run with 17/18 teams for one season and relegate one/two extra teams at the end of the season.  The remainder of the South can run as a separate parallel entity alongside the current EOS Division One/Two, with one automatic promotion place each, plus a play-off between the runners up - similar to how this season will work with the Conferences.

Tayside clubs have more of a case for coming in at Tier 6, so slot them in under the Highland League.  Clubs will only qualify for promotion to the Highland League if they are licensed, so initially, this makes no difference to the Tayside clubs situation.

The NRJFA can also be placed at Tier 6. Again, apart from BoD, no clubs will be eligible for promotion, so no real change.