New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Ray Patterson]

If they went to a First Division/Second Division format set up at 12 a piece, then a merger with the East Juniors could be feasible.

With a Premier Division of 18, a First Division of 20 and a Second Division of 22 for the first season. I imagine the fixtures could be accommodated by placing one of the cup competitions into abeyance for a season.

With a view to this becoming a either a four league set-up or regionalised set-up at the lowest tier for the following season.

[Casey Jones]

6 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

If they went to a First Division/Second Division format set up at 12 a piece, then a merger with the East Juniors could be feasible.

With a Premier Division of 18, a First Division of 20 and a Second Division of 22 for the first season. I imagine the fixtures could be accommodated by placing one of the cup competitions into abeyance for a season.

With a view to this becoming a either a four league set-up or regionalised set-up at the lowest tier for the following season.

42 league matches! You would need more than one cup competition in abeyance! Far too big a league! Not sure about the merger either.

Now in season 2 of new EOS set up, any remaining Junior teams wanting to switch over would surely have to accept starting at the lower end of league structureally and take their chances from there.

[LongTimeLurker]

38 minutes ago, Casey Jones said:

...Now in season 2 of new EOS set up, any remaining Junior teams wanting to switch over would surely have to accept starting at the lower end of league structureally and take their chances from there.

Top SFA officeholders were backing their tier 6 entry at PWG meetings last season, so it's not at all clear that the EoS could get away with that posture. There may still need to be some kind of merger.

[Casey Jones]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Top SFA officeholders were backing their tier 6 entry at PWG meetings last season, so it's not at all clear that the EoS could get away with that posture. There may still need to be some kind of merger.

Last season, there the structure was only up to tier 6.

Now with the introduction of the Premier league (tier 6) and the conferences (tier 7), I am not sure that we can talk about what was backed last year.

I do not know any of the politics surrounding new structures. Not a committee member only a supporter of a club in tier 6. But, teams in the Junior set up (even if this is only for East of Scotland) now have had three years to join the EoS set up. Kelty did it in year only. Large number of teams in year two and Glenrothes this year.

So, next year, if other Junior teams wish to join, I would deem it fair/right that they join set up at Tier 7 and work there way up as clubs did last season and try to do this season.

[LongTimeLurker]

We'll soon have a much clearer picture of the way things are going to go after there has been another PWG meeting.

[Burnie_man]

Top SFA officeholders were backing their tier 6 entry at PWG meetings last season, so it's not at all clear that the EoS could get away with that posture. There may still need to be some kind of merger.

If last season told you anything, it's that the SFA cannot force anything upon the EoS. If they do not want to merge, they won't merge. There will always be vacancies at the bottom tier if any club wants to join.

The problem you have with any merger is clubs from outside the EoS being placed higher than existing clubs, inc those who put their faith in the EoS when leaving the Juniors.

[Robert James]

On 21/08/2019 at 09:38, Burnie_man said:

Yes, because that is what they currently want, and you won't be seeing the SJFA sign away their existence anytime soon.

It's clear what the Junior clubs south of the Tay need to do if they want access to the Pyramid, and it's not as if they don't know it.  If they don't want it en-masse then they stay Junior as is their right,  and we see a gradual flow of Fife and WL clubs moving across, maybe one or two a season until the critical point is reached a few years down the line.  The re-invigoration of Glenrothes and Crossgates will make a few more Fife clubs take notice.

That situation could be replicated in the west if there is little progress, and clubs who want to move forward agitate for a new WoSFL to get going to give them the opportunity.  Those who don't want it remain Junior and don't hold back those who do.

If there's anything we have learned so far, there will be no major structural changes, no big agreements that all parties sign up to.  In my opinion the most likely scenario is death by a thousands cuts to the SJFA if and when an independent WoSFL is set-up.

In addition to the "re-invigoration" of Glenrothes and Crossgates,, don't forget Dunipace.  It is as if a new club has been created, since it left the West Juniors and joined the EoSL. 

 

[Marten]

The only way how I can see the East junior clubs (south of Tay) not having to start at tier 8 (assuming the EOS will split the conferences into 2 tiers) is if both the EOS and ERJFA agree a merger with each other. An agreed merger will undoubtedly include concessions / compromise from both sides. If a merger is not happening, ERJFA clubs will have to start at the bottom if they switch to the EOS.

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, Marten said:

The only way how I can see the East junior clubs (south of Tay) not having to start at tier 8 (assuming the EOS will split the conferences into 2 tiers) is if both the EOS and ERJFA agree a merger with each other. An agreed merger will undoubtedly include concessions / compromise from both sides. If a merger is not happening, ERJFA clubs will have to start at the bottom if they switch to the EOS.

That's about it, but IMO the longer it goes on the more unlikely EoS clubs will agree a merger which may see some ERJFA clubs come in at higher levels than existing clubs.   If Glenrothes and Kinnoull were happy to join at the bottom this season, then why not everyone else.

There was a meeting earlier this year between both leagues, but nothing has come of it and I don't think merger was discussed. Whether they will meet again in future I don't know.

An agreed merger would get the issue done and dusted and we can all move on, but I think we're more likely to see a gradual drip of clubs go over to the EoS. We'll see.

[Robert James]

22 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Personally I agree, it's time to move to a standard league structure with new applicants joining at the bottom.

This season you have 24 clubs fighting over only 3 promotion spots.  Move next season to a First Division where you can have 3 up/down between that and Premier, and then 3 up/down between that and a Second, 12 clubs in each.  Plenty to play for.  Widen out the First to 16 clubs eventually if more clubs join the Second, and as time goes on regionalise the Second if the numbers are there.

Also, a Second division would be a more attractive prospect for the likes of Eyemouth to return to, a slightly easier environment to build the club up again.

Decision required soon though.

The current arrangement between the 2 First Division conferences, is very imaginative, and was approved by the existing EoSL clubs.  However I agree with BM that it should (only) be a stepping stone to the creation of First & Second Divisions, for the reasons he advocates.

However, if there is another group of East Junior clubs, seeking to transfer to the pyramid for next season, another 'conference' arrangement may be required to facilitate integration.  Unlikely, I agree, but this is Scottish football, so you can never be sure.

  

[Marten]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

That's about it, but IMO the longer it goes on the more unlikely EoS clubs will agree a merger which may see some ERJFA clubs come in at higher levels than existing clubs.   If Glenrothes and Kinnoull were happy to join at the bottom this season, then why not everyone else.

There was a meeting earlier this year between both leagues, but nothing has come of it and I don't think merger was discussed. Whether they will meet again in future I don't know.

An agreed merger would get the issue done and dusted and we can all move on, but I think we're more likely to see a gradual drip of clubs go over to the EoS. We'll see.

True, although I could imagine a scenario with the SJFA not co-operating on a merger and all the clubs leaving with not everyone having to start at the bottom. I think some smaller EOS clubs would not be too keen on some of the larger remaining ERJFA teams joining at the bottom as they'd likely be dishing out some hammerings, so they might be happy to push for a compromise with some teams starting on tier 7. But that will have to come from the EOS clubs in that case and be agreed by a majority.

[Burnie_man]

41 minutes ago, Marten said:

True, although I could imagine a scenario with the SJFA not co-operating on a merger and all the clubs leaving with not everyone having to start at the bottom. I think some smaller EOS clubs would not be too keen on some of the larger remaining ERJFA teams joining at the bottom as they'd likely be dishing out some hammerings, so they might be happy to push for a compromise with some teams starting on tier 7. But that will have to come from the EOS clubs in that case and be agreed by a majority.

It could happen, but I doubt there would be many EoS clubs with that attitude.  To be honest, there aren't too many south of Tay ERJFA clubs that would deal out too many hammerings anyway. We're not talking Linlithgow or Bonnyrigg here.

The other matter when talking merger is of course the Tayside issue, the EoS can't take them and the clubs in the ERJFA are mostly (not all) run by "Joonyur men" with loyalty to the grade as much as their own club, so may want to stick by Tayside.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

It could happen, but I doubt there would be many EoS clubs with that attitude.  To be honest, there aren't too many south of Tay ERJFA clubs that would deal out too many hammerings anyway. We're not talking Linlithgow or Bonnyrigg here.

The other matter when talking merger is of course the Tayside issue, the EoS can't take them and the clubs in the ERJFA are mostly (not all) run by "Joonyur men" with loyalty to the grade as much as their own club, so may want to stick by Tayside.

It's early doors but Glenrothes and Kinnoull are having bright starts and there are still a few South of Tay clubs that have been more successful them left. 

That's why a SSL:EOS1 and SPL:EOS2 comparison might be a way to look at a fictional merger. 

[Burnie_man]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's early doors but Glenrothes and Kinnoull are having bright starts and there are still a few South of Tay clubs that have been more successful them left. 

That's why a SSL:EOS1 and SPL:EOS2 comparison might be a way to look at a fictional merger. 

There's a whole host of ways you could conduct a proper merger, I just don't see any indication at the moment it's even been discussed far less anything else.

The EoS just need to get on and plan their structure for next season and beyond. If merger becomes a serious topic at some point down the line then it can be addressed at that point. 

Meantime a 16-12-12 or even 16-14-10 would be a good way to go for me, with plenty of capacity at the bottom for more new applicants.

[Tory Boy]

47 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The other matter when talking merger is of course the Tayside issue, the EoS can't take them and the clubs in the ERJFA are mostly (not all) run by "Joonyur men" with loyalty to the grade as much as their own club, so may want to stick by Tayside.

I wonder whether the Highland League would become slightly more appealing to some Tayside teams if Brechin were to be relegated.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

...will undoubtedly include concessions / compromise from both sides...

Is the part that doesn't seemed to have dawned on a lot of people yet. Saying that tier 8 entry is the only option on the table south of the Tay would be taking the p i s s, just as expecting the ERSFA's current north-south split structure to enter at tier 6 was and would be. 

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Is the part that doesn't seemed to have dawned on a lot of people yet. Saying that tier 8 entry is the only option on the table south of the Tay would be taking the p i s s, just as expecting the ERSFA's current north-south split structure to enter at tier 6 was and would be. 

It might not on the forum, but I think the EoS have shown themselves to be.

So far they haven't stipulated what format they will run beneath the Premier in 2020-21. Until that's been decided I'm sure they will be open to just about anything so long as it doesn't include Tayside.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Is the part that doesn't seemed to have dawned on a lot of people yet. Saying that tier 8 entry is the only option on the table south of the Tay would be taking the p i s s, just as expecting the ERSFA's current north-south split structure to enter at tier 6 was and would be. 

What you don't understand is that the EoS are under no obligation to agree to anything if their members object. There is also no indication that the ERJFA even have merger in their thoughts. It's all conjecture on a forum.

So if the EoS go ahead with tier 8 next season, then tier 8 is where new applicants enter. If a merger is ever proposed and talked about then you deal with it at that point, not before.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Burnie_man

[ian44wood]

The remaining east juniors have had plenty opportunities to join. If they want to join they can start at the lowest tier. 

They can thank TJ for that. 

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

What you don't understand is that the EoS are under no obligation to agree to anything if their members object. There is also no indication that the ERJFA even have merger in their thoughts. It's all conjecture on a forum.

 

So if the EoS go ahead with tier 8 next season, then tier 8 is where new applicants enter. If a merger is ever proposed and talked about then you deal with it at that point, not before.

 

Tier 8 is nothing but conjecture at this point as well.