New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Robert James]

33 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I'll be pleasantly surprised if Whitehill Welfare don't get straight back in under any circumstance other than Cove promoted and EoS champion licensed and promoted given the clubs wanted to still make Selkirk the bottom club and had to be stopped from doing so by the SFA. Only caveat to that would be that they might decide to not re-apply due to the floodlights issue but that seems a bit farfetched. 

When did the SFA intervene and overturn the Lowland's  clarification that the 14th club would not be relegated ? 

[mcruic]

If the West Juniors come on board, I think it would be time to go to 3 Tier 5 leagues.  You're basically cramming more than twice as many clubs into the Lowland League pyramid structure (many more if the West join), and giving only one shot at promotion, while the Highland League, with its 18 teams, has the same chance at promotion as the West, East and South combined.  Below the current senior leagues, junior football is much stronger in the West and East than it is in the North, so if all the juniors finally come on board, the North will have a much "weaker" pyramid than the East and West.

 

If you include senior/junior non-league clubs, there are 59 in the North (including the North Caledonian League), 83 in the West and 84 in the East.  So continuing with HL and LL after juniors come on board would mean  59 teams in the North Pyramid and 167 in the South.

[LongTimeLurker]

14 minutes ago, Robert James said:

When did the SFA intervene and overturn the Lowland's  clarification that the 14th club would not be relegated ? 

There has been no official statement or clarification about 14th place. 

[Marten]

1 hour ago, newcastle broon said:

Should be 18 anyway in LL to tie in line wi HFL (still no relegation up there ) ? 

SFL has 3 leagues 10.

All English leagues have equal numbers competing at same levels ie national league North/South step 2 has 22  step 3 has 22 step 4  20 etc ? 

Yet HFL going down to 17 teams if Cove go up 

If it's indeed true that the North Juniors spoke about the pyramid and said they're not interested, there is nothing much the HFL can do as there is no league to relegate teams to. The league is still open to new applicants, but it looks unlikely that any will apply any time soon.

Geography is an important reason why you can't compere the Scottish pyramid to the English one. The HFL area contains parts of the country (mainly islands) that are too remote to make any attempts to join it worthwhile unless a club has a lot of money behind them (or get financial support for travel but I don't think the SFA intend to give that). Also the HFL covers parts of the country where shinty is played more than football. Also, if the north would ultimately fully get involved in the pyramid, there will have to be tier 6 leagues of smaller sizes than 16. You can't really have a tier 6 league covering an area even larger than the NCL already covers.

These difficulties don't apply (or at least far less) to the LL area and are therefore no reason to not further develop the pyramid there.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Marten

[mcruic]

7 minutes ago, Marten said:

If it's indeed true that the North Juniors spoke about the pyramid and said they're not interested, there is nothing much the HFL can do as there is no league to relegate teams to. The league is still open to new applicants, but it looks unlikely that any will apply any time soon.

Geography is an important reason why you can't compere the Scottish pyramid to the English one. The HFL area contains parts of the country (mainly islands) that are too remote to make any attempts to join it worthwhile unless a club has a lot of money behind them (or get financial support for travel but I don't think the SFA intend to give that). Also the HFL covers parts of the country where shinty is played more than football. Also, if the north would ultimately fully get involved in the pyramid, there will have to be tier 6 leagues of smaller sizes than 16. You can't really have a tier 6 league covering an area even larger than the NCL already covers.

These difficulties don't apply (or at least far less) to the LL area and are therefore no reason to not further develop the pyramid there.

It's still possible to bring leagues into the pyramid though, as they are at the moment.  Then it's up to them if they want to (or are able to) be promoted to a higher level.  For example, North Caledonian and North Juniors could be nominally Tier 6 (technically, that is exactly what they are now - as they can apply for HFL membership), and anything below would be Tier 7, Tier 8, etc. - i.e. nothing is any different, except that there is a recognised system in place.  Essentially, the structure of the existing leagues in the Highland region wouldn't change.  There would still be Orkney, Shetland, Lewis & Harris, Caithness, etc. leagues.  They would continue to play at their level of the pyramid until such time as one or more of them felt they could make the step up (which admittedly might be never - but then, that is exactly what they are doing now anyway!).

[Marten]

1 minute ago, mcruic said:

It's still possible to bring leagues into the pyramid though, as they are at the moment.  Then it's up to them if they want to (or are able to) be promoted to a higher level.  For example, North Caledonian and North Juniors could be nominally Tier 6 (technically, that is exactly what they are now - as they can apply for HFL membership), and anything below would be Tier 7, Tier 8, etc. - i.e. nothing is any different, except that there is a recognised system in place.  Essentially, the structure of the existing leagues in the Highland region wouldn't change.  There would still be Orkney, Shetland, Lewis & Harris, Caithness, etc. leagues.  They would continue to play at their level of the pyramid until such time as one or more of them felt they could make the step up (which admittedly might be never - but then, that is exactly what they are doing now anyway!).

That is true, however, for the remote areas the rules need to be changed then. Currently it's not possible to refuse promotion in the pyramid if you match the requirements of the league above (i.e. being a licensed club in tier 6). If you'd nominally put say the Uist & Barra league on tier 7 of the pyramid, then you can't have the requirement for a club like Barra FC to accept promotion to their 6 (which would then be the NCL) as it's pretty obvious that the club would pretty much be killed off with travel costs.

[Robert James]

46 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Should be 18 anyway in LL to tie in line wi HFL (still no relegation up there ) ? 

SFL has 3 leagues 10.

All English leagues have equal numbers competing at same levels ie national league North/South step 2 has 22  step 3 has 22 step 4  20 etc ? 

Yet HFL going down to 17 teams if Cove go up 

An interesting suggestion by newcastle broon, and worthy of further consideration in my view, for reasons set out below:

(1) with a 16 team league, the LL clubs play only 30 league matches per season (and only 28 this season), whereas the SPFL clubs play a minimum of 36 league games. This is a sizeable difference, and not an ideal step up for any  Lowland club promoted to the SPFL 

(2)  with the West Juniors 'likely' to join the pyramid, either now or in a year's time, the strength & depth of the LL will undoubtedly be higher. Therefore to  increase the number of clubs  from 16 to 18 clubs, would be beneficial, by giving two additional clubs, the opportunity to play at Tier 5 level

(3) it would add weight to the argument that SPFL "Club42", should be  relegated each season, replaced automatically  by the Highland/Lowland play-off winner  

(4) and if the Highland League can operate with 18 clubs each season, as it has since 2009/10, then there is no reason why the Lowland League can't also do so. The weather is much worse in the Highlands !

Worth a more detailed debate on the "Pyramid" forum, in my view.

 

[Robert James]

27 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There has been no official statement or clarification about 14th place. 

How then, did the SFA intervene, and why ?

[Robert James]

20 minutes ago, Marten said:

If it's indeed true that the North Juniors spoke about the pyramid and said they're not interested, there is nothing much the HFL can do as there is no league to relegate teams to. The league is still open to new applicants, but it looks unlikely that any will apply any time soon.

Geography is an important reason why you can't compere the Scottish pyramid to the English one. The HFL area contains parts of the country (mainly islands) that are too remote to make any attempts to join it worthwhile unless a club has a lot of money behind them (or get financial support for travel but I don't think the SFA intend to give that). Also the HFL covers parts of the country where shinty is played more than football. Also, if the north would ultimately fully get involved in the pyramid, there will have to be tier 6 leagues of smaller sizes than 16. You can't really have a tier 6 league covering an area even larger than the NCL already covers.

These difficulties don't apply (or at least far less) to the LL area and are therefore no reason to not further develop the pyramid there.

I completely agree with your views.

[FairWeatherFan]

39 minutes ago, mcruic said:

If you include senior/junior non-league clubs, there are 59 in the North (including the North Caledonian League), 83 in the West and 84 in the East.  So continuing with HL and LL after juniors come on board would mean  59 teams in the North Pyramid and 167 in the South.

North has 75. 18 HFL, 9 NCL, 32 North Region and 16 North of Tay East Region.

[LongTimeLurker]

How then, did the SFA intervene, and why ?

It is alleged to have been over whether Whitehill Welfare can be relegated and replaced by the playoff winner for being bottom i.e. 15th place rather than just having the promoted team fill the Selkirk vacancy. The rule says bottom rather 16th and the intervention was that this can't be changed by the LL clubs after the season has already started. The rule is poorly drafted beyond that and could be interpreted different ways depending on whether the Selkirk vacancy is viewed as always having to be filled by application or only when necessary to keep numbers at 16.

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

2 hours ago, Robert James said:

How then, did the SFA intervene, and why ?

It is alleged to have been over whether Whitehill Welfare can be relegated and replaced by the playoff winner for being bottom i.e. 15th place rather than just having the promoted team fill the Selkirk vacancy. The rule says bottom rather 16th and the intervention was that this can't be changed by the LL clubs after the season has already started. The rule is poorly drafted beyond that and could be interpreted different ways depending on whether the Selkirk vacancy is viewed as always having to be filled by application or only when necessary to keep numbers at 16.

Thanks for the further information.

It would be a total injustice if Dalbeattie Star was relegated by 'default', caused by Selkirk folding after playing 3 or 4 LL games,  and would be  unfair.  Especially if it is the result of poor rule drafting, which makes it open to misinterpretation. The existing Lowland League clubs and management, have a duty to ensure this doesn't happen.

If Berwick Rangers lose the playoffs to Cove Rangers, then one of the two Lowland vacancies will have been filled.

If the SFA Board approves the licensing of (say) all 3 EoS "conference" winners, before the Lowland League AGM, then the winner of the round robin play-offs will be promoted into the LL, thereby filling the second vacancy. 

So where does that leave  any clubs which submitted an application to join the LL ,  in accordance with the deadline set.  Probably nowhere, even though at least one of these applicants, Linlithgow Rose, is already licensed, and does have floodlights ?

A conundrum.  How about  17 or 18 clubs in the Lowland League next season, or would the SFA overrule it ?

 

 

 

[pipedreamer]

14 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Thanks for the further information.

It would be a total injustice if Dalbeattie Star was relegated by 'default', caused by Selkirk folding after playing 3 or 4 LL games,  and would be  unfair.  Especially if it is the result of poor rule drafting, which makes it open to misinterpretation. The existing Lowland League clubs and management, have a duty to ensure this doesn't happen.

If Berwick Rangers lose the playoffs to Cove Rangers, then one of the two Lowland vacancies will have been filled.

If the SFA Board approves the licensing of (say) all 3 EoS "conference" winners, before the Lowland League AGM, then the winner of the round robin play-offs will be promoted into the LL, thereby filling the second vacancy. 

So where does that leave  any clubs which submitted an application to join the LL ,  in accordance with the deadline set.  Probably nowhere, even though at least one of these applicants, Linlithgow Rose, is already licensed, and does have floodlights ?

A conundrum.  How about  17 or 18 clubs in the Lowland League next season, or would the SFA overrule it ?

 

 

 

16 clubs is the preferred number for the SFA, I believe they have tried to make the HFL shrink to that figure but were met with opposition from them. 

 

If all all clubs had floodlights then 18 teams would be fine but while they do not it’s a non starter as the HFL play mid week games right through when necessary.

[FairWeatherFan]

22 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Thanks for the further information.

It would be a total injustice if Dalbeattie Star was relegated by 'default', caused by Selkirk folding after playing 3 or 4 LL games,  and would be  unfair.  Especially if it is the result of poor rule drafting, which makes it open to misinterpretation. The existing Lowland League clubs and management, have a duty to ensure this doesn't happen.

If Berwick Rangers lose the playoffs to Cove Rangers, then one of the two Lowland vacancies will have been filled.

If the SFA Board approves the licensing of (say) all 3 EoS "conference" winners, before the Lowland League AGM, then the winner of the round robin play-offs will be promoted into the LL, thereby filling the second vacancy. 

So where does that leave  any clubs which submitted an application to join the LL ,  in accordance with the deadline set.  Probably nowhere, even though at least one of these applicants, Linlithgow Rose, is already licensed, and does have floodlights ?

A conundrum.  How about  17 or 18 clubs in the Lowland League next season, or would the SFA overrule it ?

 

 

 

As part of the application advert I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that it's only if it's required.

It's one of the reasons the deadline is set after the SPFL playoff is completed.

[newcastle broon]

23 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

 

 

If all all clubs had floodlights then 18 teams would be fine but while they do not it’s a non starter as the HFL play mid week games right through when necessary.

2 or 3 clubs wouldn't make much difference in my opinion,If the fixture secretary judged it right there would be no issues for the clubs without floodlights despite the SFA demands. 

Theres hardly an abundance of midweek games as it is  ? 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, mcruic said:

If the West Juniors come on board, I think it would be time to go to 3 Tier 5 leagues.  You're basically cramming more than twice as many clubs into the Lowland League pyramid structure (many more if the West join), and giving only one shot at promotion, while the Highland League, with its 18 teams, has the same chance at promotion as the West, East and South combined.  Below the current senior leagues, junior football is much stronger in the West and East than it is in the North, so if all the juniors finally come on board, the North will have a much "weaker" pyramid than the East and West.

 

If you include senior/junior non-league clubs, there are 59 in the North (including the North Caledonian League), 83 in the West and 84 in the East.  So continuing with HL and LL after juniors come on board would mean  59 teams in the North Pyramid and 167 in the South.

There is already a blockage to the spfl at tier 5 from the HL and LL, having three leagues would make it even worse. At this stage 2 tier 5 leagues is more than enough and if we can consistently get tier 5 clubs who win their league and the play off into and sustained in the spfl then it may increase the chances of no play off and more spaces (currently 1). Having another tier 5 league doesn't help this any. 

[Ginaro]

Strollers break their silence: https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/sport/football/glenrothes-strollers-bid-to-join-east-of-scotland-league-rejected-but-juniors-accepted-1-4918587

Quote

Glenrothes Strollers’ ambitions of playing East of Scotland football next season have been dashed after their application to join the senior league was rejected.

However, Glenrothes Juniors had their bid accepted after meeting all the requirements and will join the East of Scotland League in time for the start of next season.

 

The vote took place last week and the Strollers were knocked back due to their ground at Overstenton Park being “too open” with no enclosure, meaning fans could potentially come in and out from anywhere around the ground without having to pay to get in.

 

The Strollers could apply to the league again next year, which they intend to do. The Strollers resigned from the Kingdom of Fife amateur league in March.

The club will have a committee meeting on Monday to discuss the way forward.

Chair of the Strollers, Fiona Redpath told the Gazette: “It was a monetary thing, you have to pay to get into East of Scotland games and our park was too open.

“It is a little bit disappointing, there is a team all prepared and set up to move forward.

“It would have been beneficial for our younger players but we just have to look forward. We will look at this and hope to apply again in the future.

 

 

“There is still lots to be excited about at the club.

“We have just started our over 35s team on a Friday night, our girls section is continuing to grow and doing really well, and we’ve got a few of our teams in cup finals.”

Last Sunday the Strollers’ 2002 side won the League Cup final after a 3-2 win over Benarty on penalties.

 

[Ginaro]

As do Syngenta... https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/sport/football/boss-sibbald-leaves-syngenta-as-club-blocked-from-joining-east-of-scotland-league-1-4918982

Quote

Syngenta Juveniles’ ambitious bid to join the Scottish football pyramid has been rejected.

And head coach Gary Sibbald, who quit his managerial role at West Calder Juniors to sign up with the Dyes a year ago, has departed in the wake of the decision.

Just 12 East of Scotland football league members turned down the application at a meeting last week. However an indicative vote of associate members found no support for the application.

Concerns over the club’s match venue is understood to have played a part in clubs’ decisions, with the availability of Grangemouth Stadium and alternative arrangements at Little Kerse and Dunipace’s Westfield ground not enough to satisfy the EOSFL.

It left Syngenta supremo Kevin McGuire disappointed. But he said the SFA Legacy Club won’t rest on their laurels and plan to continue moving the club forward on all fronts.

He added: “As a club we have a fantastic platform to build upon and our reputation in youth football remains positive on and off the pitch. We will continue to work towards developing our player pathway and will now take some time to reflect and decide our next steps. We have moved forward significantly over the past ten years and will carry on in that vein.

“A key part of our progress will be working in partnership with Stephen Barr and the Galaxy Sports team at Little Kerse to further enhance the terrific facilities we currently enjoy.”

Outgoing head coach Sibbald said: “It’s with a heavy heart I’ve decided to leave Syngenta following the league’s decision. I wish everyone at the club well and am now looking to explore new opportunities at a senior level.”

McGuire added: “Gary was a key part of our plans for East of Scotland and he is a talented young coach. His ambition matched ours and we thank him for putting his faith in the project. He moves on with our best wishes and the club he goes to next will be very lucky to have him.”

However the Dyes will be welcome to re-apply for 2020-21 entry to the league system which provides a pathway to the senior leagues.

Glenrothes Strollers were also rejected over their failure to meet the ground criteria at the same meeting.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

The 12 East of Scotland members voting on it was presumably last year's 12, as the juniors etc wouldn't have voting rights yet. But wouldn't Hawick have had voting rights since they were relegated rather than joined?

[gaz5]

The 12 East of Scotland members voting on it was presumably last year's 12, as the juniors etc wouldn't have voting rights yet. But wouldn't Hawick have had voting rights since they were relegated rather than joined?

Yes, one club not in attendance so essentially an abstention I think was the reason for it being 12.