New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Exactly who/what would be the make up different leagues is a bit up in the air but to take the lowest team in the East Region Premier who can play in the EoS League, Glenrothes (I think Kirrie are North of the Tay?)... against East Region Premier League South their average away game would be 28 miles travel. The longest would be 44 miles. All their travel would be comfortably under one hour.

If Glenrothes were put into a league against the bottom four from each conference in the EoS at the moment their average travel would be 48 miles... even their average would be worse than their longest trip in the regionalised juniors and their longest three trips are around the 90 mile mark.

I, personally, think there's a bit too much whinging about travel distances in Scotland but if the EoSFL is looking at enticing clubs from the Juniors then telling clubs that are already struggling to attract players, sponsors, committee members, etc. that they can come over but will need to double their travel times costs isn't the way to do it and if the 7th tier is to be split anyway making things a bit easier on member clubs seems a lot more beneficial than forcing longer journeys.

Which clubs are "struggling to attract players, sponsors, committee members, etc", you can't just make this stuff up to suit your argument, and I'm struggling to work out just exactly what your point is to be honest. 

The area covered by the EoS isn't such a big area so travel isn't really an issue, and as I said shouldn't be an issue for clubs thinking of joining, there are already WL and Fife clubs in the EoS. Two of our longest league games are Jeanfield and St.Andrews, but we already faced the latter in the Juniors last season, meanwhile Newburgh have to make 7 trips to West Lothian this season in the South Division Juniors (similar to Fauldhouse and Whitburn in the Superleague going to Tayside)

Having a seeded Conference at tier 7 next season might actually see travel reduced for some clubs.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Burnie_man

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

Which clubs are "struggling to attract players, sponsors, committee members, etc", you can't just make this stuff up to suit your argument, and I'm struggling to work out just exactly what your point is to be honest. 

The area covered by the EoS isn't such a big area so travel isn't really an issue, and as I said shouldn't be an issue for clubs thinking of joining, there are already WL and Fife clubs in the EoS. Two of our longest league games are Jeanfield and St.Andrews, but we already faced the latter in the Juniors last season, meanwhile Newburgh have to make 7 trips to West Lothian this season in the South Division Juniors.

Travel isn't a big issue.

 

My point is simple.

If the East of Scotland Football League wants to attract clubs from the East Region Junior League then keeping travel distances to a minimum is one, of many, ways they can help facilitate that.

As to "which clubs are struggling to attract players, sponsors, committee members, etc." you, yourself, have said, on many occasions, that, within the Junior game, that clubs are finding sponsorship more difficult than ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. This is across the board in the East Juniors, according to you, and whereas many clubs will have good local support from business and members of the public it is more of a struggle for some than others. It's no secret that lack of players, committee members and sponsors is an issue for some clubs. Indeed the East Region has had four clubs fold in the last five years due to a combination of some of these factors. You don't get to use this argument against Junior clubs when arguing for the pyramid then deny it exists at a later argument.

No one, anywhere, is saying the EoS isn't a big area or that travel is an issue or that is SHOULD be an issue. No one is saying there aren't clubs in the EoS from Fife or the Lothians. No one saying that remaining Junior, or moving to the East of Scotland, or vice versa, is suddenly going to mean clubs can just play games at the end of the street.

But it's simple geography. The current East Region, aside from the North of Tay clubs, is basically Lothian and Fife. Off hand I can't think of anyone I'm missing out apart from a coupla clubs in Perth in Kinross. The East of Scotland league, however, also includes clubs from the Borders and Stirlingshire. If there isn't regionalisation then clubs will need to travel further. You and me might not see these distances as much but some clubs might so it might be beneficial to the East of Scotland to make their lower tiers regionalised for this reason.

I am entirely clueless as to what part of this is in any way disagreeable.

[FairWeatherFan]

As important as forming tiers 7-8 is long term. It shouldn't take away from the importance of how promotion/relegation will between the EoS Premier and below next year.

With a 16 team league and possibly having to take into account knock on effects of the HL/LL playoff. I doubt they'd relegated more than 3 clubs from the Premier.

If enough clubs come along for 3 conferences. It maybe wouldn't translate into exciting promotion campaigns. And doesn't seem to acceptable to regionalise in those circumstances.

Edited November 26, 2018 by FairWeatherFan

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

My point is simple.

If the East of Scotland Football League wants to attract clubs from the East Region Junior League then keeping travel distances to a minimum is one, of many, ways they can help facilitate that.

As to "which clubs are struggling to attract players, sponsors, committee members, etc." you, yourself, have said, on many occasions, that, within the Junior game, that clubs are finding sponsorship more difficult than ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. This is across the board in the East Juniors, according to you, and whereas many clubs will have good local support from business and members of the public it is more of a struggle for some than others. It's no secret that lack of players, committee members and sponsors is an issue for some clubs. Indeed the East Region has had four clubs fold in the last five years due to a combination of some of these factors. You don't get to use this argument against Junior clubs when arguing for the pyramid then deny it exists at a later argument.

No one, anywhere, is saying the EoS isn't a big area or that travel is an issue or that is SHOULD be an issue. No one is saying there aren't clubs in the EoS from Fife or the Lothians. No one saying that remaining Junior, or moving to the East of Scotland, or vice versa, is suddenly going to mean clubs can just play games at the end of the street.

But it's simple geography. The current East Region, aside from the North of Tay clubs, is basically Lothian and Fife. Off hand I can't think of anyone I'm missing out apart from a coupla clubs in Perth in Kinross. The East of Scotland league, however, also includes clubs from the Borders and Stirlingshire. If there isn't regionalisation then clubs will need to travel further. You and me might not see these distances as much but some clubs might so it might be beneficial to the East of Scotland to make their lower tiers regionalised for this reason.

I am entirely clueless as to what part of this is in any way disagreeable.

 

Travel doesn't discourage clubs from joining the EoS.  It didn't this season, it won't next season.  Generally clubs do not want to operate inside small county leagues, nobody does that at the moment anyway.

Maybe some form of regionalisation may eventually happen at the bottom level, but probably not next season and its very unlikely to be a barrier to clubs joining if there is a mixture of Fife, Lothians and Borders in each Conference, just like this season.

 

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As important as forming tiers 7-8 is long term. It shouldn't take away from the importance of how promotion/relegation will between the EoS Premier and below next year.

With a 16 team league and possibly having to take into account knock on effects of the HL/LL playoff. I doubt they'd relegated more than 3 clubs from the Premier.

If enough clubs come along for 3 conferences. It maybe wouldn't translate into exciting promotion campaigns. And doesn't seem to acceptable to regionalise in those circumstances.

Regional Conferences to decide future structure isn't fair in so much as a WL Conference could be stronger than say a Fife Conference, best to seed them again like this season to try and find some balance .

[calmac25]

Got to leave Penicuik to access the toilets.  Decent wee ground in every other way.

Plans for portacabin toilets (similar to Bonnyrigg) next to the pie stall are awaiting approval by the council.

[Cornishman]

9 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As important as forming tiers 7-8 is long term. It shouldn't take away from the importance of how promotion/relegation will between the EoS Premier and below next year.

With a 16 team league and possibly having to take into account knock on effects of the HL/LL playoff. I doubt they'd relegated more than 3 clubs from the Premier.

If enough clubs come along for 3 conferences. It maybe wouldn't translate into exciting promotion campaigns. And doesn't seem to acceptable to regionalise in those circumstances.

If Premier gains an LL club without promoting one back, let it play with 17 club membership for the following season, adding one extra relegation place for that following season. Regular relegation ought to be bottom three + fourth-bottom to participate in a play-out versus three First Division teams. In First Division, three champions promoted + three sets of playoffs between 2nd. to 5th.-placed sides, the three winners of which then join Premier-13th. in that play-out.

If any First Division teams in top-5 cannot for any reason accept a promotion, then qualification in their division would simply drop by one place. If more than one club cannot accept promotion, then after the above, the playoff 'zone' would be reduced accordingly, never taking lower than 6th.-place finishers. In the first instance, the topmost playoff qualifier would receive a bye in the first playoff round.

Were a First Division to entirely fail to produce a champion, it would be unable also to provide a playoff challenger. In this case, direct relegation would be reduced by one and the reprieved 14th.-placed team would instead join the 13th.-placed team in the play-outs. If that First Division instead promotes a champion, but has no playoff candidate, then Premier-13th. team will receive a bye in the first play-out round.

For any further 'inabilities to promote, priority will then be given to reprieves, dropping play-out places down the Premier table and sorting playoff qualifiers on a PPG basis.

NB* - 'Champion' in above references implies 'highest placed First Division team which is able to accept promotion'!

 

[Robert James]

On 23/11/2018 at 10:39, Dev said:

I believe that it is important that clubs should be allowed to play at an appropriate level as soon as practically possible.  The EOS showed a very even hand which allowed in so many former ERSJFA clubs this season. The Conference idea is being used to allow clubs to find their own level as quickly as possible. Surely we don't want to see so many mis-matches again next season!

This season there's 39 EOS, Syngenta and Selkirk waiting in the wings(?) and approximately 18 (?) ERSJFA clubs from south of the Tay Bridge so in the region of 59 clubs, ignoring relegation and promotion for now. This could split into four divisions of 15/14 clubs and could go to 4x 16 clubs max.

Assuming that in 2019/20 there will be a Premier Division then, below that, hold out an olive branch to the remaining (south of Tay Bridge) Juniors by letting them enter  en masse with their own Division One of up to 16 clubs which would sit parallel to an existing Division One for current clubs. There could be a Division Two for existing clubs too which could take in the lowest existing ERSJFA clubs.

In 2020/21 go for a single Division One and a regionalised Division Two.

Best suggestion I've heard so far !

[Robert James]

On 26/11/2018 at 15:29, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I'm aware North of Tay clubs can't join. I never said they could. But of the clubs remaining in the Juniors South of the Tay there needs to be a carrot for them joining.

If they have aspirations to get higher in the pyramid then, to bring them in, you'd imagine they would want to be as close to the EoS Premier as possible (ie: one tier below) which leads you to think if the EoS want to attract clubs they might not do a Premier with a 1st division below that and new clubs coming in even further down...  They'd want to come in at tier 7 as opposed to tier 8.

Of the clubs that aren't fussed/aren't able to compete at that level (for the time being at least) then they'd surely have a preference to join a regionalised structure as opposed to more of the same with conferences. There's no point in a club from Fife, for instance, leaving the East Region only to give themselves journeys to Berwick or Selkirk. They might well be happy to remain in the lower end of the East Region where it's already regionalised. If tier 7 (or 8) was regionalised  in the East of Scotland then they might look more favourably at making the switch.

To sum up:
If you want clubs to join giving them the carrot of making it to the EoS Premier then a split at tier 7 is the best bet as opposed to making them come in at tier 8. This could be a regional split or more conferences. However if you also want the lower ranked junior sides to make the jump then regionalisation would be more beneficial to them than a conference set up.

The EoSL should take the initiative by calling an EGM early in the new year. Give clubs 2 or 3 options, and put it to a vote. The EoSL should then openly advertise for clubs to join for 2019/20,  thereby avoiding the problems/rushed timescales which happened last year.  By doing so, the EoSL will indirectly  lead to the north of Tayside clubs (and the 'evergreen' East Juniors) also getting their act together sooner rather than later.

[AlanCamelonfan]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

The EoSL should take the initiative by calling an EGM early in the new year. Give clubs 2 or 3 options, and put it to a vote. The EoSL should then openly advertise for clubs to join for 2019/20,  thereby avoiding the problems/rushed timescales which happened last year.  By doing so, the EoSL will indirectly  lead to the north of Tayside clubs (and the 'evergreen' East Juniors) also getting their act together sooner rather than later.

They have openly advertised they have until 31st March to apply

[Robert James]

On 07/12/2018 at 09:51, AlanCamelonfan said:

They have openly advertised they have until 31st March to apply

That's good news, although the closing date for applications should surely be earlier (28th Feb ?).  When was the 'invitation' announced ?

The other big question is when will the existing EoSL clubs be consulted on the alternatives of having either a geographical, or a vertical structure, below its 2019/20 Premier Division (tier 6) ?  And what happens if another dozen or so, clubs apply for 2019/20 ?    What do the EoSL clubs want ? 

However, I accept that if SPFL 3, and/or LL2 are possibilities  for next season, early planning is impossible.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, Robert James said:

That's good news, although the closing date for applications should surely be earlier (28th Feb ?).  When was the 'invitation' announced ?

The other big question is when will the existing EoSL clubs be consulted on the alternatives of having either a geographical, or a vertical structure, below its 2019/20 Premier Division (tier 6) ?  And what happens if another dozen or so, clubs apply for 2019/20 ?    What do the EoSL clubs want ? 

However, I accept that if SPFL 3, and/or LL2 are possibilities  for next season, early planning is impossible.

March 31st has been the usual deadline for applications for a while. Until they've got an idea on the number of applicants will be, I doubt they'll have formal proposals on what below the EoS Premier will look like. Especially right now with all the uncertainty over SPFL3, LL2 and the SJFA joining at Tier 6.

[Burnie_man]

10 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

March 31st has been the usual deadline for applications for a while. Until they've got an idea on the number of applicants will be, I doubt they'll have formal proposals on what below the EoS Premier will look like. Especially right now with all the uncertainty over SPFL3, LL2 and the SJFA joining at Tier 6.

It looks like Conferences below the EoS Premier next season, so any new applicants will join at tier 7.  Out of that I would assume the winners of each Conference would be promoted, and the next 6/7/8 would form EoS First for the following season.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It looks like Conferences below the EoS Premier next season, so any new applicants will join at tier 7.  Out of that I would assume the winners of each Conference would be promoted, and the next 6/7/8 would form EoS First for the following season.

That's what I reckon. but still think there will be some discussion over going for regionalisation over a seeded draw.

[Burnie_man]

That's what I reckon. but still think there will be some discussion over going for regionalisation over a seeded draw.

I don't think that will happen as it doesn't provide balance, you could end up with strong/weak Conferences. A lot also depends on new applicants, we may see more move over from the Juniors.

I think the same methology will be used as this season.

[drs]

The Camelon chairman said during the week that the Juniors will be entering the East at tier 8 IF they join.

[Burnie_man]

The Camelon chairman said during the week that the Juniors will be entering the East at tier 8 IF they join.

Whereabouts?

[Sergeant Wilson]

I assumed the WL teams had hung back from joining as they expected a regionalised bottom tier to join at. Essentially making very little change for any of them.

[Burnie_man]

I assumed the WL teams had hung back from joining as they expected a regionalised bottom tier to join at. Essentially making very little change for any of them.

West Lothian is a little like Ayrshire in the loyalty stakes when it comes to Junior fitba.

[Robert James]

On 09/12/2018 at 20:29, Burnie_man said:

On 09/12/2018 at 20:05, Sergeant Wilson said:

I assumed the WL teams had hung back from joining as they expected a regionalised bottom tier to join at. Essentially making very little change for any of them.

West Lothian is a little like Ayrshire in the loyalty stakes when it comes to Junior fitba.

Is there any news about Selkirk reforming and applying to join the EoSL next season ? Any early indications/rumours about other new EoSL applicants, junior or amateur ?