New clubs in the East of Scotland

[craigkillie]

17 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Also Burntisland Shipyard and Coldstream probably.

One of the problems is you only need a entry level ground for League One and Two (+bronze level floodlights), so getting a licence allows you to go halfway up the SPFL with the same facilities that gets you entry into the HL/LL. If the SPFL changed their rules so you needed a bronze ground at all levels only Albion Rovers would fall foul of the rule (and they're going down anyway!).

The issue would then be, only three of the LL clubs have bronze grounds (shared with SPFL clubs) and one HL (Narin, maybe Cove as well). Less chance of a non-league club being promoted, but it would allow them time to sort out the pyramid and also their facilities.

The SFA could just say that any new applicants must be in tier 6 next year (EOS Premier/WOS), or add something in between bronze and entry required for tier 5.

Upgrading the entry requirements for League 1 and League 2 would be a dreadful retrograde step. As long as the ground is safe and has the basic facilities needed, that should be enough for part-time football. There's no need to put artificial barriers in place.

[cmontheloknow]

35 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The cover installed for 100 at Golspie Sutherland's ground and accepted for licensing:

is a prime example of what could be tightened up a bit by the licensing committee to avoid a massive influx. The problem for them is if they tighten up too much is that the resulting cull of the existing full members would start to include some Lowland League clubs like Civil Service Strollers:

Yeah not sure how GS's 'cover' complies - you'd struggle to get 100 P1s under it!

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

Upgrading the entry requirements for League 1 and League 2 would be a dreadful retrograde step. As long as the ground is safe and has the basic facilities needed, that should be enough for part-time football. There's no need to put artificial barriers in place.

The cynic in me says the Entry level was set so low as to not lose any of the existing Full Members. Lo and behold, they all got through.

As it is, Bronze is currently beyond most Non-League sides. But Entry covers a huge range of sides. Maybe it is more sensible as LTL suggested to have some sort of division within the Entry standard to separate the wheat from the chaff, with the new standard being that required for L1/2. It might be say 500 covered rather than 100.

[LongTimeLurker]

Was Ginaro I think on that one, but sounds sensible. Then you can also make the lower set of standards the entry point for regional Qualifying Cup style preliminary rounds to the main Scottish cup without giving the clubs involved full membership and all the money that flows from that.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

35 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

The cynic in me says the Entry level was set so low as to not lose any of the existing Full Members.

Equally cynical, although maybe a bit more progressive, is to entice more clubs to go for licensing knowing that it's not too far a stretch. Especially as they've wanted the junior sides to come over.

Maybe once a "proper" pyramid is in place the criteria will be re-written?

[Ginaro]

16 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Upgrading the entry requirements for League 1 and League 2 would be a dreadful retrograde step. As long as the ground is safe and has the basic facilities needed, that should be enough for part-time football. There's no need to put artificial barriers in place.

There's already an artificial barrier in place for a LL club with an entry licence moving to the SPFL - floodlights. If you can install them, you should be able to ensure the other bronze requirements are met:

• safety certificate
• bigger pitch and better playing surface
• stricter field gradient
• proper goalposts
• bigger match officials room
• covered seating technical area
• cover for home and away support - minimum 500
• disability access officer
• better disabled WC, and covered wheelchair area with no sightline obstructions

If for example Coldstream installed floodlights and then went on a winning run that saw them win the pyramid play-off, that would be fine according to the SPFL rules.

[craigkillie]

Floodlights are necessary given the number of midweek fixtures that teams will be expected to play. None of those other things, with the exception of a safety certificate and disability access seem like they should be essential to play in League 2. They're desirable, of course, but I don't think they should be essential for that level.

[parsforlife]

i think the ultimate aim for licencing should be to cover every level of the pyramid, push standards up over all levels.  I remember finding the version the EFA had a few years ago its got 10+ levels too it.  Having only 4(maybe 5, can't remember if there is a platinum or not)  doesn't  sufficiently cover all ranges of the game.  

Obviously the lower end of licencing probably should come with very early Scottish cup entry and much reduced payments compared to what entry currently gets you, possibly even reduced voting rights if the full members feel threatened, its certainly do able if we get our heads together(LOL).

Edited October 9, 2018 by parsforlife

[HTG]

I agree that there is a gulf between meeting the basic entry level requirements and providing a facility fit for football at a nationwide level. There could for example be an additional requirement to provide x amount of covered seating.  Are current entry level requirements strong enough on the provision of toilet facilities - I know there is a ratio. If the ratio equates to average SPFL2 (and then SPFL1) attendances then fine. If not, no go. Kind of points to Entry Level (basic) and Entry Level (advanced) as a reasonable split. The former should be a clear indicator of working with best practice at the level you're comfortable in.  The latter aimed at the more ambitious clubs.  Both should have some form of attraction to them - supporting pathway in communities and associated funding for example. There may be a point where only the higher level qualifies for competition at a national level.

[Deanburn Dave]

6 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Yeah not sure how Golspie Sutherland's 'cover' complies - you'd struggle to get 100 P1s under it!

Where there's a will there's a way...........

[lithgierose]

There's already an artificial barrier in place for a LL club with an entry licence moving to the SPFL - floodlights. If you can install them, you should be able to ensure the other bronze requirements are met:

• safety certificate
• bigger pitch and better playing surface
• stricter field gradient
• proper goalposts
• bigger match officials room
• covered seating technical area
• cover for home and away support - minimum 500
• disability access officer
• better disabled WC, and covered wheelchair area with no sightline obstructions

If for example Coldstream installed floodlights and then went on a winning run that saw them win the pyramid play-off, that would be fine according to the SPFL rules.

Do you know the acceptable field gradient ?

[GordonS]

10 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Floodlights are necessary given the number of midweek fixtures that teams will be expected to play. None of those other things, with the exception of a safety certificate and disability access seem like they should be essential to play in League 2. They're desirable, of course, but I don't think they should be essential for that level.

Got to say, I don't think any club without decent disabled access should be in the SPFL. Linlithgow Rose installed disabled toilets last season and a new, raised and covered disabled viewing area this season. Since then it's been well used and I might be wrong but I don't remember seeing the guys using it at games before - presumably the lack of access was preventing them from coming. I think every club who can afford it should be expected to have disabled facilities now, and certainly as a minimum for SPFL. Disabled fans should be able to follow their team home and away at that level.

[craigkillie]

I agree. That's one of the two points from the Bronze requirements which I think should be necessary for SPFL entry.

[info]

19 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Floodlights are necessary given the number of midweek fixtures that teams will be expected to play. None of those other things, with the exception of a safety certificate and disability access seem like they should be essential to play in League 2. They're desirable, of course, but I don't think they should be essential for that level.

Oversimplified. It is not just the expense of installing floodlights that has to be taken into consideration. Grass pitches maintained on a voluntary basis struggle to be playable twice a week. All-weather pitches (with lights) cost around £500 K to install and to be licensed must be recertified on I think a bi-annual basis at a cost of 1 to 2 thousand. Costs just keep coming so I don't think you will get an overload of licensed clubs once clubs do their sums.

[craigkillie]

4 minutes ago, info said:

Oversimplified. It is not just the expense of installing floodlights that has to be taken into consideration. Grass pitches maintained on a voluntary basis struggle to be playable twice a week. All-weather pitches (with lights) cost around £500 K to install and to be licensed must be recertified on I think a bi-annual basis at a cost of 1 to 2 thousand. Costs just keep coming so I don't think you will get an overload of licensed clubs once clubs do their sums.

I'm not sure where you're really coming from here. Another poster suggested tightening up the existing licensing rules for entry to the SPFL, and I pointed out why I felt it was wrong to restrict teams from reaching League 1 or League 2 unless their facilities were really substandard. At no point did I suggest anything to do with an overload of licensed clubs, or that I thought floodlights were cheap/expensive, or anything else to do with costs.

My sole point was that clubs which have safe grounds with basic facilities (including floodlights) should not be denied entry into the SPFL.

[HTG]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

I agree. That's one of the two points from the Bronze requirements which I think should be necessary for SPFL entry.

Both disabled toilets and a covered accessible viewing area (with space for at least 2 wheelchairs and 2 seated companions) are already a requirement for the Entry Level. The question then is whether these things are installed to the letter or spirit of the requirement. We spent quite a bit more than we'd have needed to just to fulfil the criteria because we wanted our supporters who need a bit of help to get to games to feel valued. That said, we had good support from the SFPT which made all the difference. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by HTG

[holme]

22 hours ago, GordonS said:

That picture is a good example of something that really pisses me off at Strollers - folk standing against the rail right in front of the seats. You'd have to be a twat to do that.

I wouldn't want to visit there in a wheelchair either, the path from the pavilion is a mess of rubble and there's no hard surface beside the pitch.

I get what you say about their ground. But to be fair to Strollers it is a work in progress, every time we go there things are slightly better. They plan to tarmac the path from the clubhouse  in the near future.

I would agree there needs to be a hard path round to the covered area  

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, holme said:

I get what you say about their ground. But to be fair to Strollers it is a work in progress, every time we go there things are slightly better. They plan to tarmac the path from the clubhouse  in the near future.

I would agree there needs to be a hard path round to the covered area  

I don't doubt it, everything I hear about the club is good.  It's maybe a consequence of the creation of the Lowland League, it has pulled up everyone's standards, ambitions and expectations.

[GordonS]

13 hours ago, lithgierose said:

23 hours ago, Ginaro said:

There's already an artificial barrier in place for a LL club with an entry licence moving to the SPFL - floodlights. If you can install them, you should be able to ensure the other bronze requirements are met:

• safety certificate
• bigger pitch and better playing surface
• stricter field gradient
• proper goalposts
• bigger match officials room
• covered seating technical area
• cover for home and away support - minimum 500
• disability access officer
• better disabled WC, and covered wheelchair area with no sightline obstructions

If for example Coldstream installed floodlights and then went on a winning run that saw them win the pyramid play-off, that would be fine according to the SPFL rules.

Do you know the acceptable field gradient ?

My first thought reading that was; Bonnyrigg. 

[lithgierose]

My first thought reading that was; Bonnyrigg. 

When gradients of pitches was first questioned as being acceptable or not.the question was brought up about bonnyrigg. it was answered at the time,that bonnyriggs pitch met criteria.but that's not to say the governing bodies won't move the goal posts again.(no pun intended) [emoji23]